working Ur-Leica?

[George Furst]

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On 5/29/2021 at 9:18 AM, JohnW. said:

Just for interest, a Ur Leica replica has just come up for sale locally here in Melbourne, Australia. https://www.cameraexchange.com.au/product-page/leica-ur-replica  Unfortunately due to recent 7 day Covid lockdown the store is operating via web and telephone only at the moment.  Hopefully the camera is still there when the lockdown is over and I can go and have a look as I have never seen one "in the flesh' before.

This is NOT a replica, it is the 1970s Leitz Student Engineer Graduation project DUMMY that shows up on eBay from time to time. I have no idea why they mislead the purchaser by calling it a replica. According to my Webster’s Seventh Mew Collegiate Dictionary, a replica is “1. A close reproduction or facsimile esp. by the maker of the original” 2. Copy : Duplicate. This item for sale is missing so many parts that I find it hard to call it a replica. Also Leitz, Wetzlar  rightly called it a dummy. Again my same dictionary defines a dummy as: “Having the appearance of being real, but lacking the capacity to function.” This is exactly what is being sold here, it is definitely a dummy and it took many years and lots of research and money to turn this UR Dummy into a UR Replica that uses the same superior Leitz 42 mm Mikro Summar microscope lens that Barnack used.

The only difference is Mr Kim’s UR Replica does not use a figure 8 spring to connect the shutter curtain winding mechanism to the film advance spool and it has a 8 mm shutter curtain opening rather then Barnack’s 38 mm opening. Each of these differences from the original were very much discussed between Mr Kim and me and decided upon only because they work. It is noted that Barnack later substituted gears for the figure eight spring in his designs as I am sure he realized that the figure “8” spring was prone to fail (I think Ambro51 can vouch for this) by slipping because of its small size. I am sure that the original Barnack UR in the safe at Wetzlar does not function because of this spring design. The wider curtain was used as a bow to modern film speeds, an update to the world of film speeds which we live with today. I am including with this submission pictures of these two changes.

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[wlaidlaw]

It is a puzzle to me why these cameras (like mine) have any internal parts, as they are non-functional and in my case the shutter blind is not even connected and just hangs loose. 

Wilson

[George Furst]

37 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

It is a puzzle to me why these cameras (like mine) have any internal parts, as they are non-functional and in my case the shutter blind is not even connected and just hangs loose. 

Wilson

Wilson, I too am surprised why there are all those parts inside dummy that was never intended to be a working camera. I have thought of this allot over the years and have a few ideas. Maybe originally they were to be working cameras and they realized that this was a project that was  too far to go. Another idea is that since this was an apprenticeship graduation project, they wished to make it more challenging and added all the extra parts. After all if the assignment was only the exterior look of the original UR, it would only be a project of cutting out the body to look like the original. Then it would not be challenging enough to be a graduation project. As having been a professor of design, this would be my thought. It would also make the student aware of the challenges that Barnack faced as he crafted the original.
 

On another thought you mention the dangling shutter lines. They were evidently given left over Leica lllG curtains given to the students to incorporate into their final dummy. They were evidently left over because of dropping the lllG? I do not remember where I read about these left over curtains, but it sounds plausible. On my dummies, these curtain lines were connected and the shutter actually moved but since there was no shutter opening they were there just for show.

[frame-it]

is this accurate?

 

 

Barnack built at least three UR Leicas, the first one from 1913 survives complete with lens in the Leitz museum in Wetzlar. It is known that Barnack experimented with several different commercially available lenses on this model, but none of them were used in production cameras.

At least two more UR Leicas were produced. The second one has been lost and no photographs exist. The third model made about 1918-20 survives in the Leitz museum, but has no lens. This model has many differences from the first model. For example, the UR model had only a single fixed shutter speed, but model three had several shutter speeds similar to those found on production Leicas.

The three UR Leicas are unique and were never intended for commercial sale, but from the 1970s onwards Leitz made replica UR Leica cameras for collectors. Because there is no single definitive UR Leica, the replicas have models 1 and 3 features. Some of these replicas were non-functioning dummy display models, but some were designed as functioning cameras.

The UR replica in the Photographic History Collection is a working model with lens. The camera has the Leitz Wetzlar logo on the back and the words Nachbildung der Ur-Leica (replica of the original Leica) on the top plate.

 

 

 

https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_1145586

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[George Furst]

3 hours ago, George Furst said:

This is NOT a replica, it is the 1970s Leitz Student Engineer Graduation project DUMMY that shows up on eBay from time to time. I have no idea why they mislead the purchaser by calling it a replica. According to my Webster’s Seventh Mew Collegiate Dictionary, a replica is “1. A close reproduction or facsimile esp. by the maker of the original” 2. Copy : Duplicate. This item for sale is missing so many parts that I find it hard to call it a replica. Also Leitz, Wetzlar  rightly called it a dummy. Again my same dictionary defines a dummy as: “Having the appearance of being real, but lacking the capacity to function.” This is exactly what is being sold here, it is definitely a dummy and it took many years and lots of research and money to turn this UR Dummy into a UR Replica that uses the same superior Leitz 42 mm Mikro Summar microscope lens that Barnack used.

The only difference is Mr Kim’s UR Replica does not use a figure 8 spring to connect the shutter curtain winding mechanism to the film advance spool and it has a 8 mm shutter curtain opening rather then Barnack’s 38 mm opening. Each of these differences from the original were very much discussed between Mr Kim and me and decided upon only because they work. It is noted that Barnack later substituted gears for the figure eight spring in his designs as I am sure he realized that the figure “8” spring was prone to fail (I think Ambro51 can vouch for this) by slipping because of its small size. I am sure that the original Barnack UR in the safe at Wetzlar does not function because of this spring design. The wider curtain was used as a bow to modern film speeds, an update to the world of film speeds which we live with today. I am including with this submission pictures of these two changes.

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I wish to return to this thought about the use of the figure 8 spring in the original and our use of gears for this transfer of motion between the take up spool and the film winding mechanism. My two figures below show the two solutions, Barnacks and ours that we used in our Korean made UR Replicas. Look to the right of the schematic diagram of the original on the first picture then look at the way we solved this motion with four gears as did Barnack on his later editions of the screw mount cameras. The gear solution is much more elegant and I remember Mr Kim saying that he did not poke the figure 8 spring and would not use it in our project. It did mean that we had to find a donor camera to supply the gears, as Mr Kim did not wish to cut these sets of gears if they were available from another camera. 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by George Furst
Corrected photo orientation

[Ambro51]

The picture of the Oberlander cameras shutter is exactly what a UR shutter cloth will look like when you attempt to wind a UR clockwise., like a later Leica.   The drum is rotated to where  the cloth  attachment is “up”,  in a wrong and never seen position in normal usage of the camera, advancing film with a counter clockwise turn.  •••••. My money is on the Oberlander camera being fully workable, except as noted, the counter. 

[George Furst]

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26 minutes ago, frame-it said:

is this accurate?

 

 

Barnack built at least three UR Leicas, the first one from 1913 survives complete with lens in the Leitz museum in Wetzlar. It is known that Barnack experimented with several different commercially available lenses on this model, but none of them were used in production cameras.

At least two more UR Leicas were produced. The second one has been lost and no photographs exist. The third model made about 1918-20 survives in the Leitz museum, but has no lens. This model has many differences from the first model. For example, the UR model had only a single fixed shutter speed, but model three had several shutter speeds similar to those found on production Leicas.

The three UR Leicas are unique and were never intended for commercial sale, but from the 1970s onwards Leitz made replica UR Leica cameras for collectors. Because there is no single definitive UR Leica, the replicas have models 1 and 3 features. Some of these replicas were non-functioning dummy display models, but some were designed as functioning cameras.

The UR replica in the Photographic History Collection is a working model with lens. The camera has the Leitz Wetzlar logo on the back and the words Nachbildung der Ur-Leica (replica of the original Leica) on the top plate.

 

 

 

https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_1145586

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The UR Camera that is in this museum is not a working example. It is a UR Dummy. I have written them about this misleading description a few times but never received an answer. If they would open it up, they would find that it is missing key parts needed to make it an operating camera.

[wlaidlaw]

When talking about the figure 8 drive spring, would this have been something like what is used for a drive belt in a toy oscillating steam engine road roller (Mamod, Willesco etc)? 

Wilson

[Ambro51]

It is a 1” diameter coil belt, exactly what was used with Cine projectors. The glitch appears when you “tinker” and attempt to remove or reposition the belt with the drum and sprocket shaft installed.  Too much pull, grabbing it the wrong tools....messes it up and it won’t work properly.  A matter of too little clearance with the parts installed.  I admitted defeat and went with a tough 1/8” square by 1” black rubber belt (band).  It has proven faultless.  BTW, the “real” UR is indeed “broken”.  You can wind it on, but the shutter won’t fire.  I’m sure Malcom Taylor could fiddle with it a bit though and go make some pictures 🙂 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Ambro51

[wlaidlaw]

52 minutes ago, Ambro51 said:

 I’m sure Malcom Taylor could fiddle with it a bit though and go make some pictures 🙂 

He has to finish my 250FF first . He has had to make new gears for it as the originals were almost worn away. 

Wilson

[zeitz]

1 hour ago, George Furst said:

I have written them about this misleading description a few times but never received an answer.

You are dealing with the Smithsonian.  It is a bloated bureaucracy with bloated inaccessible warehouses.  There are probably employees who do care, but they are likely powerless to make anything happen even if the letters got to them.  There may not be anyone with the skill to open the camera.  Most all displays in the American History museum now are culturally focused , rather than technology focused as was formerly done in the History Museum.  The Smithsonian displays about 0.2% of its total holdings; almost no cameras are on display from its massive photographic collection.

[George Furst]

3 hours ago, Ambro51 said:

The picture of the Oberlander cameras shutter is exactly what a UR shutter cloth will look like when you attempt to wind a UR clockwise., like a later Leica.   The drum is rotated to where  the cloth  attachment is “up”,  in a wrong and never seen position in normal usage of the camera, advancing film with a counter clockwise turn.  •••••. My money is on the Oberlander camera being fully workable, except as noted, the counter. 

So far we do not know of an Oberländer UR Replica that is working. I have never seen a photograph taken using this camera. Also it does not use the 42mm lens that is found in the only original UR camera that Barnack made back in 1913-4. The one presently in the vault at Leitz headquarters, Wetzlar. At the time he was making them, he may not have known the lens that was in the UR at Wetzlar as I am sure that it was widely available then, as it is now. If he had known, maybe he would have used it because it fits perfectly into the UR Dummy housing and also focuses perfectly. I doubt that the 50 mm lens found in his version focuses as well. When we made our UR, my greatest moment of excitement was when I found that the focus marks on the dummy were correct for the 42 mm lens. It was then that I knew “Yes this is the correct lens!”

[George Furst]

The trials and tribulations of converting a dummy UR to an authentic copy of the original Barnack UR model of 1913-14. This was my third visit to Mr Kim’s new shop out in the hinterland of Korea. It is about an hour drive from Daejeon but there ware expressways the whole way. His shop is very much like the one in Seoul he abandoned when the price of the monthly lease became prohibitive. Last time I left him with $500 in Korean change to spur him on to finish the project. Yes he had make significant progress. The shutter is finished and works well. Also the 42mm Mikro Summar lens in in place. The problem now is the part that guides the film behind the shutter and encloses the two shutter drums. This is a very important part of the camera as it ensures that the film is maintained in a perfectly flat position against the pressure plate. The challenge here is the distance between the two drums of the shutter. There is little room and this UR Student Model has a problem in that the two shutter drums are too close together and this does not allow enough room for the collapsible barrel of the lens holder. Mr Kim showed me the challenge. He had already made three of these guides that I show below. On the other side of this film guide are the film spools so the space available is extremely tight and there I little room for changes of dimensions here. 
 

we left after a nice lunch and hopefully he will rise to the challenge. He did show me that he could move the lens barrel a few mm but that means redrilling the holes. This leads to other issues including contact with the other shutter drum that I will not detail. He also said the price will go up for the conversion by about $300 for a total of around $1600 for the conversion. This is the challenge of this project due to variations in UR Dummies. Since the UR Dummies were a student graduation project, they vary so much. I will include a pictures showing the progress to date.  

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[George Furst]

Has anyone noticed this UR Dummy (they call it a replica, I will not) presently on eBay for $995? What I found interesting is that it has the figure eight wire spring connection of the spool with film part to the film advance sprocket. This is exactly the way Barnack connected the two axels that need to rotate in opposite directions and are in very close proximity. I point this out because this is where Mr Kim’s UR Replicas vary from Barnack’s 1913-14 UR original that is in the Vault at Leitz Headquarters in Wetzlar. Mr Kim used the more elegant solution of a series of gears to connect the two axels. All the next steps in the evolution of this 35mm camera had this more elegant solution. Mr Kim and I struggled with the dilemma. Do we use the figure 8 spring or use Barnack’s better solution. We decided that it was better to use Barnack’s better design solution. The reason we decided this path is that we wanted a final camera that did not break down. There is a saying that “a chain is no stronger than its weakest link”. We saw this original figure 8 spring in the original Barnack UR design as being a weak link! We believe that Mr Barnack did too as he never again used the spring connection in the future evolution of the camera that became the revolutionary  Leitz 1a camera. This listing of the UR Dummy is interesting in that it actually shows the interior of the sample. Take a look and I will upload a picture from eBay of this non operational camera dummy and a view of a portion of this figure “8” connection mentioned above. 

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[George Furst]

Has anyone noticed this Italian UR Dummy (they call it a replica, I will not) presently on eBay for almost $2000? Itisagood example of this UR Dummy. The bottom does not open and the top is in two pieces. This example may not have used the student graduation UR that we have used. For this reason alone it is quite interesting.

 

 

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Edited June 18, 2021 by George Furst
Changed some information.

[George Furst]

On 6/18/2021 at 11:56 AM, George Furst said:

The trials and tribulations of converting a dummy UR to an authentic copy of the original Barnack UR model of 1913-14. This was my third visit to Mr Kim’s new shop out in the hinterland of Korea. It is about an hour drive from Daejeon but there ware expressways the whole way. His shop is very much like the one in Seoul he abandoned when the price of the monthly lease became prohibitive. Last time I left him with $500 in Korean change to spur him on to finish the project. Yes he had make significant progress. The shutter is finished and works well. Also the 42mm Mikro Summar lens in in place. The problem now is the part that guides the film behind the shutter and encloses the two shutter drums. This is a very important part of the camera as it ensures that the film is maintained in a perfectly flat position against the pressure plate. The challenge here is the distance between the two drums of the shutter. There is little room and this UR Student Model has a problem in that the two shutter drums are too close together and this does not allow enough room for the collapsible barrel of the lens holder. Mr Kim showed me the challenge. He had already made three of these guides that I show below. On the other side of this film guide are the film spools so the space available is extremely tight and there I little room for changes of dimensions here. 
 

we left after a nice lunch and hopefully he will rise to the challenge. He did show me that he could move the lens barrel a few mm but that means redrilling the holes. This leads to other issues including contact with the other shutter drum that I will not detail. He also said the price will go up for the conversion by about $300 for a total of around $1600 for the conversion. This is the challenge of this project due to variations in UR Dummies. Since the UR Dummies were a student graduation project, they vary so much. I will include a pictures showing the progress to date.  

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The latest UR coming from Mr Kim’s camera center is finished and I will forward it to Mark soon. I even finished the first roll of APX 400 and developed it last night. I was excited to be the able to take the first pictures with this beauty. It was certainly easier to advance the film without the film counter. Mark cancelled on that as it would hav been a few more months and a hefty amount of money to ass all the gears to finish that mechanism. So here are a few of the first photos from the newest UR Replica on Planet Earth!

[George Furst]

Just now, George Furst said:

The latest UR coming from Mr Kim’s camera center is finished and I will forward it to Mark soon. I even finished the first roll of APX 400 and developed it last night. I was excited to be the able to take the first pictures with this beauty. It was certainly easier to advance the film without the film counter. Mark cancelled on that as it would hav been a few more months and a hefty amount of money to ass all the gears to finish that mechanism. So here are a few of the first photos from the newest UR Replica on Planet Earth!

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Here is photo from UR

[George Furst]

Just now, George Furst said:

Here is photo from UR

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I’ll try again

[George Furst]

The above photos were the first from the UR camera to be sent to Mark. In order to have them included I had to cut them in half so the original is much sharper. I will send one more again I had to do major cropping of the picture. This has been my greatest frustration with this forum, the limitation of the Max file size. I belong to other forums related to cars, and guitars and this is the only one that has strict limits on the file size. To me this is shocking as this is a forum dedicated to photography!

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Ambro51]

So....Did Z ever finish up the project?