working Ur-Leica?

[zwieback]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

hmm, a couple of pictures at least I can supply about the last activities:

the trimmed film support, a more complicated trim is required to clear the bottom bracket and gears

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

the fit of the bracket

reason for the trim at the top is the sprokets of the film transport roller

The spring for the film pressure plate:

a picture of its previoius life:

pressure plate below the spring

that's all for now.

Edited April 27, 2021 by zwieback

[George Furst]

Looks very similar to the pressure plate that Mr Kim made. Here is a photo of the one he made for my UR a few years ago. Note that it has a different little construction. Mr Kim is very careful in his machining and manufacture. As you are too by the looks of the same item for your UR.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[zwieback]

Interesting, even though it looks like more sophisticated than my one, which is only sheet metal with four slots added to it. I liked this design due to its simplicity, typical for Leica, and because it is kind of periode correct as the "handmuster" uses a similar style of pressure plate spring (taken from the "strictly mendatory" book of Dr Kisselbach that every Leica historic fan should own):

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by zwieback

[zwieback]

on the Ur Leica I once put all the parts together to see if some rework or modification would be required and to check the clearance of the rollers.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

It all appeared fine to me and you can see that the rollers leave sufficiend space for the curtain without the risk of binding.

What becomes visible as well is the modified gear drive, with a much larger sproket fitted to the advance roller than in the dummy camera. This should give me enough curtain pull (i am looking for 52-54mm) for a 4-8mm slot + safety, which is what I am aiming for.

I tried the camera with a paper shutter curtain to mark a few positions easily. In the current installation I am getting 38mm pull with a travel limited advance roller (angular stops), so I would need to increase the set limits to get to the 52+mm. Sould be all within reach. In the worse possible situation I might need to increase the roller by maybe 0.5-1mm to get to the required travel.

My theories here are, that the dummies are actually exact copies of the ur-Leica in the museum of wetzlar but that this camera was never ever a "working" camera but just a toy given to Leitz II as a child at his birthday. This also explains the horedous view finder, that Barnack would never ever have used on his camera (I am convinced of that, doubeling the size of his "liliput" camera, with the word "liliput" describing "small"). As a result of copying the museum camera, the dummies are also not working cameras. You hear me right, I am saying, that Leica does not know how the (working) ur-Leica worked and how the internals were designed.

Maybe a reason why the two (?) other ur-Leicas dissapeared to collectors to unknown destinations and only the museum camera was left behind was the fact, that the museum camera was not a true, funktioning camera, their pictures match closely those of the dumies. The other two must have been working cameras and now only their owners know how they look from the inside and how they worked. I think it is pretty damned obviouse for all of us that tried to make the dummies work, that a camera like the dummy would never ever be a working camera, not even close.

Edited May 5, 2021 by zwieback

[jerzy]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb zwieback:

My theories here are, that the dummies are actually exact copies of the ur-Leica in the museum of wetzlar but that this camera was never ever a "working" camera but just a toy given to Leitz II as a child at his birthday.

what leads you to this assumption? Look at #172, a copy of an article from Vidom. Musem Ur is/was a working copy

[zwieback]

two simple questions:

-if the Oberländer replica was on the way to you it should have arrived by now and you should have taken a couple of pictures I guess and ccan answer the question if the Oberländer copy is a working camera first hand. It does work, and what's the spacing between negatives? I would be very interested to hear about it as well as knowing if it is full frame (means 36+mm wide)

-If it is made like the ur Leica, due to the lack of a light seal, all the film already exposed would be exposed again after each shot. There is a very large passage passed the bottom gear drive (like visible on the picture I just posted above. There is another passage due to the frame counter a bit higher up. I have not taken care about it yet and just wanted to get the mechanics working properly first. If the Oberländer would be an exact copy in this respect, it would not be a working camera. This is a problem of much lesser extent on the left hand side to the unexposed end of the film.

[zwieback]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

the other part was already mentioned a couple of times and it is the totally insufficient curtain pull with the gear ratio of the museums ur camera. You can still have enough pull if you remove the end stop and use the curtain length instead but this will unavoidably lead to either have large speces between negaitves and/or a crop of the full frame (negative not reaching 36mm).

[jerzy]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb zwieback:

if the Oberländer replica was on the way to you it should have arrived by now and you should have taken a couple of pictures I guess and ccan answer the question if the Oberländer copy is a working camera first hand

check 

 

[zwieback]

and, what's the quality of the pitures you are getting? Just post a few, I would be interested in seeing what the lense can do.

Maybe you could also write a bit about your experience using the camera or post a link if it was already done.

[George Furst]

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Please correct me if I am wrong that the only pictures taken by a UR Camera are from the original made by Barnack and the UR Dummy to UR Replica made by Mr Kim for me here in South Korea. With this note I am sending out a big net for pictures taken by either the Mr Oberländer UR or for pictures taken by the UR replicas made in Italy. Has anyone ever seen a photo taken by another UR Camera other than Barnack’s original or Mr Kim’s replica? Barnack took a large number of pictures from the time he finished the only existing original UR in 1913-4 and the rest of that decade. It is interesting that I have never seen pictures taken using Barnack’s UR that date later then the late 1910s. Was it put away after the new improved models, including the Leica O, and to never take a picture again.

 

 A number of Oberländer cameras were evidently made in the 80s  and a number of examples were made in Italy but no pictures have ever been seen taken from these cameras. I can’t ever understand having one of these amazing cameras and never using them for the purpose for which they were designed. To me until I see an actual picture I will have to assume that they either do not work because of some problem, or they are gathering dust on a shelf. Please prove me wrong! This one that was taken with Mr Kim’s UR Replica using the original 42mm Leitz Mikro Summar lens. Come on let’s see some pictures from the other URs.

Edited May 22, 2021 by George Furst
Added more information

[Ambro51]

Well George you know my self converted UR #9, with the 1911 Zeiss Kino Tessar, As Barnack used, has made many fine images.  Basically I just “tweaked”, replaced and made a few changes to the “non working” things so they “worked”........Your Challenge is fair.  Personally I don’t see any challenge a fairly skilled home tinkerer couldn’t overcome.  The Replica “IS” a valuable item and unsuccessful attempts and trying to reinvent the wheel that fail mean the dreaded “baggie” and life in a bottom desk drawer. 

[Ambro51]

On 5/6/2021 at 2:38 PM, zwieback said:

and, what's the quality of the pitures you are getting? Just post a few, I would be interested in seeing what the lense can do.

Maybe you could also write a bit about your experience using the camera or post a link if it was already done.

Take the Time to actually Read  George’s extensive and well written posts of some years back several “pages” back on This thread.   ..........take the Time to Read the Thread. 

[jerzy]

if other Oberländer replicas were built like mine copy than it is not very probable that any photos taken exists. Slit width is 36mm which give exposure time of 1/35 - 1/40. This was fine with the speed of cinema film but I doubt that you can get nowadays a film with such low speed.
I mentioned it in the past somehweher, that the lens on my coopy is rather unusual- It is cotaed, 3 elements with aperture behind the last element, Size of the first lens indicate that with the focal length of 50mm it shall be f 2,8,  mask in front of the lens makes it something like 6,3- There is a marking on the tube indicating how far it shall be extracted to achieve proper focus. I was not able to indentify origin of the lens, what brand it is

[Pyrogallol]

If you like to use slower shutter speeds to simulate using the camera in the 1930’s, or even earlier, try Ilford Pan F, nominally 50 ISO (I was brought up to say ASA) developed in Ilford Perceptol it has a speed of around 25/30 ISO with smooth gradation.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited May 23, 2021 by Pyrogallol

[Guest JMF]

39 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

If you like to use slower shutter speeds to simulate using the camera in the 1930’s, or even earlier, try Ilford Pan F, nominally 50 ISO (I was brought up to say ASA) developed in Ilford Perceptol it has a speed of around 25/30 ISO with smooth gradation.

You may try an even slower (6 to 25 ASA)  BW negative film :

https://www.fujifilm.com/products/motion_picture/lineup/eterna_rds/#Overview

http://www.alexluyckx.com/blog/index.php/2019/12/30/one-roll-review-fujifilm-eterna-rds-type-4791/

Edited May 23, 2021 by JMF

[Ambro51]

3 hours ago, jerzy said:

if other Oberländer replicas were built like mine copy than it is not very probable that any photos taken exists. Slit width is 36mm which give exposure time of 1/35 - 1/40. This was fine with the speed of cinema film but I doubt that you can get nowadays a film with such low speed.
I mentioned it in the past somehweher, that the lens on my coopy is rather unusual- It is cotaed, 3 elements with aperture behind the last element, Size of the first lens indicate that with the focal length of 50mm it shall be f 2,8,  mask in front of the lens makes it something like 6,3- There is a marking on the tube indicating how far it shall be extracted to achieve proper focus. I was not able to indentify origin of the lens, what brand it is

OK, ......load some film in and give it a try.   We are waiting 

[zwieback]

Am 23.5.2021 um 00:18 schrieb Ambro51:

Am 6.5.2021 um 20:38 schrieb zwieback:

and, what's the quality of the pitures you are getting? Just post a few, I would be interested in seeing what the lense can do.

Maybe you could also write a bit about your experience using the camera or post a link if it was already done.

Take the Time to actually Read  George’s extensive and well written posts of some years back several “pages” back on This thread.   ..........take the Time to Read the Thread. 

Ambro, I was assuming that it was clear to anybody, that my post was directed to the post about the Oberländer just before. I wanted to challange, exactly like Mr. Furst, that there are no other working Ur-Leicas out there. except yours and Mr Furst's cameras. That camera on the pictures can never be a working camera because the shutter curtain hangs slack inside the camera housing and for sure will never provide the required light seal.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

That problems around the mechanical implications on top where already mentioned enough time before, so no need to simply repeat. I don't think that he made the camera housings himself either but used the Leica ones because the strap holders have got very sharp edges, which was done on the replicas and not on the Ur-Leica.

everybody welcome to prove me wrong. Pictures taken from the Vidom magazin.

[zwieback]

on my own camera to progress came alsmost to a stop. A lot of work and my mind set on other things.

I managed to machine the grove into the film advance roller sproket as an end stop for the shutter curtain but that was all.

In the current form I am getting 48mm of curtain pull, which is the lower limit of what I was aiming for. This was tested again with a paper shutter, so using proper shutter curtain materials, the thickness would increase and so does the pull but it will probably still not be more then 50mm. This would leave 36mm - 6to8mm slot divided by two = 3-4mm of overlap at the edges of the picture frame. Just enough but 4+ would make me fee more compfortable.

[zwieback]

 

Am 23.5.2021 um 10:45 schrieb jerzy:

if other Oberländer replicas were built like mine copy than it is not very probable that any photos taken exists. Slit width is 36mm which give exposure time of 1/35 - 1/40. This was fine with the speed of cinema film but I doubt that you can get nowadays a film with such low speed.

ISO and shutter speed is obviously not an argument if you are really interested in taking pictures with the camera. You could use ND filters as well and go for ordinary film and not lith- or doc- films with low sensitivity.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[JohnW.]

Just for interest, a Ur Leica replica has just come up for sale locally here in Melbourne, Australia. https://www.cameraexchange.com.au/product-page/leica-ur-replica  Unfortunately due to recent 7 day Covid lockdown the store is operating via web and telephone only at the moment.  Hopefully the camera is still there when the lockdown is over and I can go and have a look as I have never seen one "in the flesh' before.