No "R" solution at Photokina!

[jackaubrey]

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Bill,

 

Out of interest what digital reflex system do you use today?

 

As you have used Contax, Nikon and Leica reflex systems in the past you must be using an equally high quality system today.

 

Regards

 

Kevin

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[roydonian]

During a ‘question and answer’ session at the Leica Historical Society of America annual meeting in Wetzlar earlier this week, Stefan Daniel was asked about the promised ‘R-solution’. It is still planned, he confirmed, and will take the form of an electronic-viewfinder (EVF) camera with a full-frame sensor. If I understood him correctly, the camera will be able to use M and R lenses (the latter presumably via an adaptor).

 

He accepted that current-generation EVFs had performance problems, but predicted that improved versions developed over the next few years would be much more acceptable.

 

In response of a comment that such a solution might be acceptable to amateur R users, but not to professionals, he suggested that EVF technology would eventually reach the point where manufacturers would abandon the traditional mirror-and prism-based SLR.

 

Asked when we could expect to see the ‘R solution’, he said that it was a long-term project and we should not expect to see it at the next Photokina.

 

Best regards,

 

Doug

[mjh]

In many interviews Olympus says about LAST produced dSLR. No reason for more mirror cameras.

Did you talk to Olympus? I did.

[Jerry_R]

Did you talk to Olympus? I did.

You did it in private. I read official newspapers interviews.

In fact I do believe both sources, including you, as it already occured, that one company speaks different voices.

[mooky]

During a ‘question and answer’ session at the Leica Historical Society of America annual meeting in Wetzlar earlier this week, Stefan Daniel was asked about the promised ‘R-solution’. It is still planned, he confirmed, and will take the form of an electronic-viewfinder (EVF) camera with a full-frame sensor. If I understood him correctly, the camera will be able to use M and R lenses (the latter presumably via an adaptor).

 

He accepted that current-generation EVFs had performance problems, but predicted that improved versions developed over the next few years would be much more acceptable.

 

In response of a comment that such a solution might be acceptable to amateur R users, but not to professionals, he suggested that EVF technology would eventually reach the point where manufacturers would abandon the traditional mirror-and prism-based SLR.

 

Asked when we could expect to see the ‘R solution’, he said that it was a long-term project and we should not expect to see it at the next Photokina.

 

Best regards,

 

Doug

 

Well thanks Doug, it is appreciated. If you are correct in understanding and relating it to us, then an R solution will merely be some type of new generation or M spin-off that will allow R lenses with an adapter to be used on the new camera. Not even at the next Photokina? Well to me there is little reason to wait around any longer - I'll just keep using my film R's and start researching non M alternatives.

 

Because quite frankly, I have tried C&N systems and I have yet to be satisfied - but perhaps it's time to try again; and that Leica will never get it's act together in a professional DSLR system camera (please don't say the S2) that it will continue to support in a timely fashion. The M 'system' is excellent, but in it's traditional form, it will never be as versatile as a DSLR. Leica blew it when it decided to spend 30ML on the S2 instead of the R10 - They alienated an established, already existing customer/user base, while they had none for the S2.

 

It's obvious you satisfy your existing base before you venture out to a new market. That is just bad business and a bad gamble. Nice job Leica - this is something I never thought I'd see you do.

[farnz]

... Leica blew it when it decided to spend 30ML on the S2 instead of the R10 ...

Mooky,

 

I understand your frustration and as an R lens owner I share some of it myself.

 

But strategically it might prove to be the right decision if, as many in the industry are predicting, a mirror-less format will kill the dSLR concept before too long. If that happens then Leica will be much better positioned as a going concern because it won't have expended precious R&D funds in producing a range(?) of dSLRs in a doomed format (that also would have to compete with C,N,O,S, S and P for market share) and the predictions are that a mirror-less format overtaking the medium format concept are a long way off. The S2 is already selling better than expected (which I suspect is a pleasant surprise to many early S2 doubters on this forum) so the future of the S2 looks promising whereas as an R10 is likely to have placed the company under considerable financial stress.

 

In the LHSA interview Stephan Daniel said that an R solution is at least 2 years away "not the next Photokina" and that may be to allow the mirror-less format and technology to mature before committing to it. (Few of us would like to see Leica commit substantial investment to a technology with the staying power of APS for example.)

 

So it looks like your options for the moment are film, R8/9+DMR, m4/3, 4/3 or an adaptor and stopped down metering with C, N , S or S.

[hamey]

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I am also a long time user of the Leica-R system,because I still use my R lenses in Film the R-Solution

doesn't much concern me at this time.

 

BUT the other day I was at the Camera exchange down here in Melbourne were I got to play with

CANON's magnificent D- series DSLR,

 

I knew that most of my R-Lenses would work on the 1.6 crop DSLR but I wanted something better

then what Canon was offering in this range.

 

So I placed my LE-Canon adapter (made in Japan) onto my 28-90 mm lens then attached it to this gorgeous beast called 1D-mk4 with it's 1.3 crop, yeah I could live with it.

 

So lets try, fire the shutter..................................BINGO IT WORKS THE RESULTS WERE MAGNIFICENT, what a machine, what a machine with the 28-90 mm Leica lens balances beautifully.

 

OK... the 1Ds HAS THE SAME MIRROR ASSEMBLY AS THE 1D-mk 4 but FF....so will it work..

BINGO YES......it WORKS THE MIRROR DID NOT HIT THE LENS.

However it did on the 5D, but who cares, the 5D is a toy compered to the D series.

 

So gentleman there you have it, do you think I am going to give a ? what Leica is going to do

with their R solution NO I DON'T.

 

Probably in future if I decide to go Digital I am going to buy A CANON 1D to use with my R lenses after all they deserve the best, but also I can use Zeiss or it's own Canon lenses.

Yes it's a large but with the weight of the R lenses you do need a strong platform to balance this combination, though after all this, I still love shooting slide film with my Leica R's......... but!

 

Thank you Canon, for giving me hope for the future.

 

 

Ken.

[mooky]

Thanks farnz,

 

If Leica is smart about it they can come along ahead of this 'mess'...and they do have an opportunity to do so as the new 'tech-timing' may work in their favor.....here is my response from the Thread; 'No DSLR solution below S2 line'......

 

"I agree that a 'bridge camera' makes the most sense. But I would like Leica to start with a clean sheet of paper this time. If there is any restriction placed on the success, usability, or features of the 'new' design by sticking with the M9 footprint or profile then Leica shouldn't be afraid to change.....and as has been said, they can still produce the classic M.

 

As long as it's close in size I'm sure most would embrace it - and I think AF is a must in today's market. People (the market) just expect it like they expected AE years ago, and as long long as it can also use legacy glass, why not? Please Leica, make the finder eyepiece as nice as the S2, and don't forget the weather seals. I could care less what sensor they use, as long as it works and is reliable in the field. Oh, and make it so it's a REAL system camera with real close-up lenses, etc., plus 5 frames per second (no video) for when I want and need it. Oh, put a contour on the body that I can really get a grip on (with gloves too, make the controls bigger that I can use with gloves....there, that's a start.

 

There is isn't a solution for R glass other than an adapter and they won't be building a camera around the need for just an R solution. I don't agree at all with the S2 over/instead of the R, they've alienated too many customers with that decision, myself included, and they dumped a huge amount of cash for the S2 to do so. Whatever you do, don't screw it up - set new standards - don't keep sitting on old ones."

[mhoersch]

But strategically it might prove to be the right decision if, as many in the industry are predicting, a mirror-less format will kill the dSLR concept before too long.

 

Sure, just like the movies killed radio, television killed the movies, the internet killed both, e-books killed books, and digital killed analogue. Every time the industries come out with something new they proclaim dead everything else that went before. Sometimes it works, but most times it doesn't.

 

And I couldn't care less. I don't want to read a newspaper on the screen of a computer monitor, I don't want to read a novel on an e-book reader, and I most certainly don't want to use a camera that has no optical viewfinder - because I want to look directly at what I'm about to photograph, not an electonic image of it.

 

So, Leica can make as many cameras or "solutions" without optical viewfinders as they want - I won't buy any one of them. Simple as that.

[bill]

Hi Kevin,

 

Bill,

 

Out of interest what digital reflex system do you use today?

 

None.

 

As you have used Contax, Nikon and Leica reflex systems in the past you must be using an equally high quality system today.

 

Why? Interesting logical jump...

 

I recently sold both my R7 and lenses and my E-520, E-3 and range of Olympus pro-spec lenses to finance a new acquistion. Via a converter I was also using the Leica lenses on the 4/3 bodies.

 

For me, there is no "must" when it comes to SLRs in general and DSLRs in particular; I simply prefer to see the world through a rangefinder window not down the "tunnel" of an SLR. For very occasional macro and tele work I have picked up a secondhand FZ50, but my focus is M and Barnack. I have moved on as my tastes have matured.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[farnz]

Manfred,

 

I agree with you and I also feel resistant about adopting The Next Big Thing just because some pimply-faced marketing plonker thinks I should.

 

But it's not about that, it's about what will sell and what will turn Leica a reasonable profit in order to keep the company afloat. And that's just not the R10 unfortunately.

 

Pete.

[earleygallery]

There is an excellent R solution that people keep forgetting to mention. It's by far the best in terms of quality/price ratio too.

 

It needs no Leitax or other adaptor, doesn't require stop down metering and allows full use of all lenses.

 

I was going to keep this solution a secret for myself but feel it's only fair to share.

 

It's called FILM

[farnz]

I agree, James, and mentioned in post 46.

 

Pete.

[UliWer]

... Simple as that.

 

Right. Stick to things as they were and have stood the test of times.

 

You can buy many R-bodies completely or almost unused together with a whole setup of Leica lenses for about 30 or 20% of the original prices. What is your complaint?

[hamey]

I have inclosed two shots taken with the 1D-MK4.

 

Both are hand held with Leica-R 28-90mm lens.

 

NO FLASH, just available light

 

Check out the ASA and the shutter speed.

 

Ken.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[mhoersch]

Manfred,

 

I agree with you and I also feel resistant about adopting The Next Big Thing just because some pimply-faced marketing plonker thinks I should.

 

But it's not about that, it's about what will sell and what will turn Leica a reasonable profit in order to keep the company afloat. And that's just not the R10 unfortunately.

 

Pete.

 

Are you sure, Pete? Isn't it just the other way round? Someone wants to sell e-books and thus proclaims books to be dead. Works great, doesn't it? No more books sold since the advent of the e-book, right?

 

Leica obviously want to make big profits without much effort by sticking red dots on Panasonics - and thus proclaim the DSLR to be dead. They don't even seem to realizie the irony when, at the same time, they bring to the smallest existing market what is probably the most expensive DSLR of all times - the S2 at 22 k€.

 

And they don't seem to have any logical problems, either, when they claim that they can't sell an R10 body for 6 k€ in the biggest existing market to their own solid customer base, while they want to conquer the waning MF market where they have no customers at all and where their solution is more expensive and less flexible than those of the well established competition.

 

If you ask me, all this is pure Leica marketing nonsense, and it remains to be seen how things will turn out for Leica in the end.

 

In the meantime, I will happily use my R9//DMR, and when it stops working I will just as happily turn to one of the other doomed manufacturers of dying DSLRs and get myself a nice professional Canikon...

[Wiggi]

The real "R-solution" comes from the competitors: Canon, Sony, Nikon.

 

It is a big strategic mistake of Leica to give up the emerging market of the FF-DSLR.

[andybarton]

For those of you who want to see the Forum's English translation of the interview at Photokina, it's here

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/144758-leica-luf-%40-photokina-english.html

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Hallo,

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[jackaubrey]

Hi Bill,

 

Thanks for your reply. I must admit I had just assumed that a long term SLR user would wish to carry on with a reflex system.

 

For myself I cannot decide what Digital system I want to use. I was a long term Nikon users before I moved to the Leica R system.Q

 

Having now enjoyed an R8 (the best film SLR I have ever used) and Leica lenses, I find that I want to stay with a Leica system.

 

During a visit to the Leica Mayfair shop I tried both an S2 and an M9. I loved the S2 viewfinder, the simplicity of the controls and I was surprised that it did not feel quite as heavy as I expected - but alas for the price!

 

I was also quite taken with the M9 for it's light weight, simple design, and wonderful engineering - but I did find myself struggling with the very small viewfinder window. I could not take all of the scene in without having to stare into each of the corners of the viewfinder - is this normal I wonder?

 

Well I need to make a decision on a digital system by the end of this year as I have a trip to New Zealand planned early in the New Year and I know for sure that it won't be the fabled Leica R digital solution.

 

Regards

 

Kevin

[Overgaard]

The solution for R lenses is R9/DMR for the time being. What happens next is hard to tell. I think Nikon or Canon might be a solution for some, especially if you need the machinery and speed they offer.

 

For a step up in quality from the R9/DMR the answer is Leica S2. The system has not taken off yet, and probably won't for real till the CS lenses start delivery in spring 2011. But already now it's clear that the file quality combined with the Leica lenses surpass about everything known. Only if ISO or speed of the machine is a concern, the S2 is not your answer.

 

The R-solution from Leica coming "after Photokina 2012" will not be a professional solution in the sense the R9/DMR is a fully integrated professional set. It will be a compact set for M lenses that will also take R lenses, but why one should use R lenses on such a M camera defies me. The 80/1.4 has a special look, yes. The 60 Macro might be handy. The 400mm is a fantastic piece of gear, yes. But I don't see a bird shooter lying behind some hill with such a camera and a 400m. It's an M camera we're talking about, and most likely a "mini M9" with new technologies applied - and the R line is dead as an integrated line.

 

Many R lenses will find new use on Nikon and Canon cameras, and perhaps with much more joy as part of video kits where the Leica look really glow and create a special look.

 

But in all this, let's not forget that the R9/DMR actually does exist and create stellar results that many other dSLR users can only dream about. The DMR is still available second-hand at very fair prices (currently one on the sell section for 4,000$ including body and DMR). If one start looking at what can be done with the R9/DMR and the R lenses, and try to forget that it's the last in line and that other cameras can shoot 8 fps, it will do the most outstanding portraits and landscapes.

 

But as you shoot with the R9/DMR and enjoy the results, do save up to the next gear package, which will be either an M set of camera and lenses, or the S2. That is, if you want to have the Leica philosophy around light and photographing.

 

@hamey

Sorry to say so, but the images are not up to par with what you can do with R lenses. The fine details an R lens can capture and convey to a sensor is not seen under those circumstances (artificial light and high ISO) though Canon cameras can in fact produce quite good files with R lenses (despite moire filters and all).

 

Leica R9/DMR with 80mm f/1.4: