No "R" solution at Photokina!

[thomasl.se]

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The 400mm is a fantastic piece of gear, yes. But I don't see a bird shooter lying behind some hill with such a camera and a 400m.

OT...

 

Hi Thorsten,

 

Is that the 400/6.8 which you review on your site? I bought one and find it just slightly stiff to push/pull, which can be kind of frustrating when trying to nail the last nudge of accurate focusing. Do you know whether lubing the 400 or any push/pull lens is common practice? I have some teflon based lube which I guess might be fine for the purpose, but I'm not sure exactly where to apply it.

 

Otherwise for the price it seems indeed quite a steal, a gem as far as f6.8-ish go .

 

Regards,

Thomas

[bocaburger]

OT...

 

Hi Thorsten,

 

Is that the 400/6.8 which you review on your site? I bought one and find it just slightly stiff to push/pull, which can be kind of frustrating when trying to nail the last nudge of accurate focusing. Do you know whether lubing the 400 or any push/pull lens is common practice? I have some teflon based lube which I guess might be fine for the purpose, but I'm not sure exactly where to apply it.

 

Otherwise for the price it seems indeed quite a steal, a gem as far as f6.8-ish go .

 

Regards,

Thomas

 

Hi, I have the 400 push-me-pull-you and it was likewise stiff. I spoke with Don Goldberg (DAG Camera repair) and he told me to clean the rails and troughs with an alcohol-soaked swab and then apply a tiny thin coat of synthetic teflon grease. It worked like a charm. The operative word is tiny thin coat because the grease is very stiff. You only need a whisper of it. I used "Tri Flow" (mfr by Sherwin Williams) in the tube (not aerosol!) which I bought at a bicycle shop. You'll need to unscrew and remove the optics (easy) to get at the rails from in front. Once you put a little dab on the front of the rails you can work the trombone and the grease will disperse evenly.

 

To the point of a digital R solution, I was a little bit puzzled at Leica's response. How difficult would it be to modify the S2 body? A revised mirror box for the R register, the sensor from the M9, minus the microlens array, and appropriate firmware. Doesn't seem like that huge of an R&D expenditure to me. My only conclusion is that Leica must feel the demand is extremely tiny. That, and since they have no plans to re-start production on the R lenses, their only profit would come from the bodies.

Edited October 7, 2010 by bocaburger

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[giordano]

To the point of a digital R solution, I was a little bit puzzled at Leica's response. How difficult would it be to modify the S2 body? A revised mirror box for the R register, the sensor from the M9, minus the microlens array, and appropriate firmware.

 

If the aim is (say) a £7,000 body - only 50% more than the most expensive Nikon or Canon DSLRs - it's probably not a good idea to start by modifying a £14,000 body.

 

It's not just "revising" the mirror box. Almost every dimension would be different. The focusing screen is in a different position, so the condenser and prism must also be different, and the eyepiece. And the exposure metering and flash metering sensors. And there'd have to be a motor to work the R lenses' diaphragms, and a mechanism to convert the position of the cam on the lens into a digital value. The electronic contacts on the R mount are not compatible with those on the S mount, so it needs new circuitry, not just new firmware. And in any case the mirror box is an integral part of the body castings, so we're talking about new dies. And new top and bottom plates. And so on and so on.

 

And how many people would really pay £7,000 plus tax for a manual-focus-only R-mount DSLR?

Edited October 7, 2010 by giordano

[mooky]

Leica is in a leaking boat , the same boat they've been in for years - one camera is bailing out the other and the harbor (Leitz Park) has no slips. They will provide nothing of consequence for the R lens user - wake up to the new reality - their statements to the contrary have meant nothing.

 

They made a strategic choice - leave the R users at the curbside. I'm not really interested in the economy excuse as a reason for it or that an R digital wouldn't sell enough; do they really think an R digital would sell less numbers than the S2? The big-shots made the call to go with the S new system - no matter how good it is - was a mistake because for the first time in Leica history they dumped loyal customers.

 

That is the reality, a cold decision by design or accident is still a cold decision. Leica makes some very nice equipment, but I'll never put any stock in their words again.

[hamey]

The solution for R lenses is R9/DMR for the time being.

 

@hamey

Sorry to say so, but the images are not up to par with what you can do with R lenses. The fine details an R lens can capture and convey to a sensor is not seen under those circumstances (artificial light and high ISO) though Canon cameras can in fact produce quite good files with R lenses (despite moire filters and all).

 

Leica R9/DMR with 80mm f/1.4:

 

Agree with you all the way Thorsten, yes I know the shots are not that sharp....BUT

 

My point was, is I can use my 28-90mm R-Lens and other R lenses with the 1D-mk4 or the 1Ds FF.

And frankly if I have to spend all that money on the 1D series I would probably only use Canon and Zeiss

Lenses, simply to get the full benefit of those auto focus lenses.

But Digital imaging is not for me at this time as I still enjoy shooting slide film.

 

I don't really care what Leica has up it's sleeve on the R solution, what ever it will not be value for money

The M9 and the S2 are ridiculously expensive and I would have to be IN MY PERSONAL OPINION

A Knuckle head to own one.

 

The Canon DSLR in the likes of the 1D-4 and the 1Ds are cheaper then the M9 more advance, can take

heaps of lenses, etc, overall far better value then Leica's M9.

 

I still love my R stuff but Dear old Leica has made up my mind to go else were for my Digital needs.

 

Ken.

[SteveYork]

I don't see an "R solution" from Leica coming down the road. Leica has already lost too many potential R users through its' silence and inactivity.

[SteveYork]

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OT...

 

Hi Thorsten,

 

Is that the 400/6.8 which you review on your site? I bought one and find it just slightly stiff to push/pull, which can be kind of frustrating when trying to nail the last nudge of accurate focusing. Do you know whether lubing the 400 or any push/pull lens is common practice? I have some teflon based lube which I guess might be fine for the purpose, but I'm not sure exactly where to apply it.

 

Otherwise for the price it seems indeed quite a steal, a gem as far as f6.8-ish go .

 

Regards,

Thomas

 

I took one of these to photography polar bears last year in Churchill, Canada. Fun lens to use, but only so-so optics.

[SteveYork]

Well thanks Doug, it is appreciated. If you are correct in understanding and relating it to us, then an R solution will merely be some type of new generation or M spin-off that will allow R lenses with an adapter to be used on the new camera. Not even at the next Photokina? Well to me there is little reason to wait around any longer - I'll just keep using my film R's and start researching non M alternatives.

 

Because quite frankly, I have tried C&N systems and I have yet to be satisfied - but perhaps it's time to try again; and that Leica will never get it's act together in a professional DSLR system camera (please don't say the S2) that it will continue to support in a timely fashion. The M 'system' is excellent, but in it's traditional form, it will never be as versatile as a DSLR. Leica blew it when it decided to spend 30ML on the S2 instead of the R10 - They alienated an established, already existing customer/user base, while they had none for the S2.

 

It's obvious you satisfy your existing base before you venture out to a new market. That is just bad business and a bad gamble. Nice job Leica - this is something I never thought I'd see you do.

 

I'm not disagreeing with anything you say, but I was told by dealers that for years prior to its' discontinuation, the R system simply wasn't selling. Leica is nothing but capitalistic (e.g., all those silly limited edition models) and if they could make money on the R system they would still have it. But you're correct, there's no reason to wait around.

[SteveYork]

I've spent a great deal of money on R glass. I don't think enough attention has been paid to the fact that several important R lenses cannot be used (either not at all or without hacking them about) on third party bodies. I own a significant number of these. So far as I can see, at present it seems therefore that it's a DMR or nothing - and DMRs are getting a bit long in the tooth, so spending over £2k on one is a worry. At the moment I stick with film.

 

I'm fed up with teasing hints that something is "under consideration". I'm beginning to think that they may well "consider" for twenty years, and then say that, after careful consideration they will do nothing.

 

I'm just beginning to consider whether or not I should sell my R equipment. That would mean my walking away from Leica, completely, with a bad taste in my mouth. Sorry, but that is how I'm beginning to feel.

 

 

Join the crowd. So man others have sold out of their R stuff that it would be silly for Leica now to market a R-only solution.

[SteveYork]

I have been following a digital R solution ever since the DMR was announced sometime in 2004. From what I gathered, there are many of us who fall into two buckets of R users.

 

Bucket 1:

Legacy R-users with many lenses including the mythical 35-70 f2.8.

 

Bucket 2:

New R-users who picked up new/used leica R glass at steep discounts.

 

 

Bucket 3: Former R users who got tired of waiting.

[Xmas]

As background, I was a big Contax SLR user, and I also had the G1 and G2. The RX was to me the best SLR I have ever found, bar none and the glass was superlative. I was disappointed when Kyocera and Zeiss killed the lines, but I didn't dwell on it. I moved on, to Nikon then to Leica.

 

The death of the R has been more protracted than Frank Sinatra's farewell tours, but it has gone, as has he. It is an ex-system. Deceased. Shuffled off this mortal coil. No more.

 

There are two options. Continue to enjoy what you have in good grace, as I did until a few short weeks ago, or move on. There is no middle ground. The Leitax solution is the nearest you can get to a Leica DSLR; if it doesn't appeal - and it didn't to me - then find something that does.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

You do realize that if you don't hang up your stocking on Christmas Eve, it wont be full of goodies in the am.

 

Noel

[mjh]

I was told by dealers that for years prior to its' discontinuation, the R system simply wasn't selling.

One could say that Leica did not abandon their loyal customers, rather the customers had been abandoning Leica. Now of course Leica had got it coming after missing out on several key developments in the SLR market, thus making the R system appear less and less attractive compared to the Japanese offerings. But when Leica did eventually pronounce the R system dead they were just stating a fact.

[bocaburger]

If the aim is (say) a £7,000 body - only 50% more than the most expensive Nikon or Canon DSLRs - it's probably not a good idea to start by modifying a £14,000 body.

 

Point well taken. Then how about using the R9 as the starting platform?

 

Heck, why wouldn't die-hard R fans be glad if Leica simply resurrected the DMR, given the heaps of praise it still gets?

 

It seems clear that Leica is treading very lightly but making it clear by innuendo that they aren't going to make a real effort to revive the R system. I think that was clear the moment they disbanded the production of the lenses.

[mooky]

One could say that Leica did not abandon their loyal customers, rather the customers had been abandoning Leica. Now of course Leica had got it coming after missing out on several key developments in the SLR market, thus making the R system appear less and less attractive compared to the Japanese offerings. But when Leica did eventually pronounce the R system dead they were just stating a fact.

 

Agreed. But they continued with the hints of the R (lens at least) solution. On a personal note, I discovered Leica when I was 7 years old. It was my Father's Leica screw-mount system., and he was starting his M system. I have the M) and the SL/R which was my preferred choice but when they showed signs of sitting on technology because of arrogance - why do we need to have auto-focus? 'our users now how to focus manually"...or just bad marketing strategy, then I started to wonder. It was easy to see that things weren't 'right'.

 

But I wanted to believe because the stuff was (it still is) destruction-proof and the optics great. But now, that feeling I had of the magic and amazement after picking up the screw-mount lenses and feeling the precision of the focusing helical has nearly faded. It spoke about people that cared for what they made and that they knew someone would 'feel it' - that is a kind of trust to me. It's too bad for Leica, because I want to see them succeed - but as a small company the last thing you want, by design, accident, bad timing, luck, or marketing, is to have happen whats happened with Leica; not being able to 'pull off' their R promises in a timely fashion. I really think they're losing more than just R users - I think they're losing a part of their reputation.

[adan]

Folks, I have to be blunt.

 

I realize this is hard to accept, especially for those R users (I know, not all of you) who also happen to be successful people used to be "served" and kowtowed to. But you are - to Leica - about as attractive a market as a random collection of homeless people. You are not going to be profitable for them. Continuing to serve you would eventually put them back in the poorhouse. And since they are not slaves, they don't have to (and have decided not to) work for you anymore.

 

A downsized S2 vs. a revised R9 is irrelevant - Leica has better things to do with their time and money.

 

Personally, Leica's announcements and answers at photokina resulted in me going out and BUYING an R lens (180 APO f/3.4 - and a Canon 5D2 to put it on).

 

They were liberating. They clarified things (vague as they were). I no longer had to worry about what Leica might produce someday-over-the-rainbow, since it would obviously be (if even real) an EVIL and thus a non-starter for me - and I have a lot of pictures to take between now and 2013 in any case.

[pico]

By whom? ;-) Kodak’s full-frame transfer CCDs (that Leica has been using in the DMR as well as the M8 and M9) don’t support live-view by virtue of their design. They never will and there is nothing to be “fixed”. An EVIL camera requires a CMOS sensor and the most likely supplier of such a sensor would be Sony.

 

Does Panasonic use Sony sensors?

[mjh]

Does Panasonic use Sony sensors?

The LC1 (aka Digilux 2) had a Sony CCD but Panasonic is now employing their own sensors (CCD and Live-MOS) exclusively. If Panasonic did develop a 36 x 24 mm Live-MOS sensor it would be a natural choice for a FF EVIL camera but it doesn’t look like they do.

[mooky]

adan,

 

I agree with your comments. I just hate to see them go this route. For me Leica stood for tradition, quality, integrity and respect for the craft of photography and the users.

 

On my 'little patch of sand' they lost more than a little of that. I'll keep using my film Leicas, but I'll look elsewhere for my 'solution' and I'll see them in a completely different way from now on. I'll get over it and any disappointed R users will fade into the background 'bokeh' of Leica users but they'll be there.

 

Perhaps it would be best for Leica to feel the stings they brought onto themselves so they don't screw it up again. They will probably always have some type of market for their equipment and it will be interesting to see where they are by next Photokina.

[sfage]

Well, maybe we could all buy the department store Leica... and become whores.

 

Limited Edition Leica M9 Only Available Through the Neiman Marcus Christmas Book | Facebook

 

Whatever. An expensive whore is still a whore.

 

Know what else? If one is actually "seen" with one of these, the rest of us will just think they don't know how to operate it.

Edited October 9, 2010 by sfage

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[mooky]

Well, maybe we could all buy the department store Leica... and become whores.

 

Limited Edition Leica M9 Only Available Through the Neiman Marcus Christmas Book | Facebook

 

Whatever. An expensive whore is still a whore.

 

Know what else? If one is actually "seen" with one of these, the rest of us will just think they don't know how to operate it.

 

I'm also wondering how they have a 'Needless-Markup' M9 with Silver Chrome (assuming it's not paint) when it's one of the features M users would like to see and haven't gotten yet.