Don't hold your breath.......Photokina '10

[dickgrafixstop]

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we had an M9 on 9-9-09, so how about a guess for 10-10-10?

 

easy:

V-LUX2 too easy because the Panasonic LX100 is about to ship. 14.6 megapixels,

admirable zoom, available in black, already has a Leica lens. Shouldn't take too long

for the Red Dot boys to tweak a little code and make the cosmetic changes to bring it

along in the $900 range relatively unchanged.

 

hard:

V-LUX2R modify the lens mount to accept interchangeable R-type lens and go off to the

races (or the bank). Has the advantage to keeping the faith with those of us who believed

that Leica would "provide a path" for those of us with a bag full of lens and old film cameras.

 

 

hardest:

V-LUX3R put the M9 full frame chip in the V-LUX body with a R mount and be able to

sell it for $5000. (OK, put the M8 chip in it and sell it for $3500)

 

 

 

Leica has said they were not going to pursue a reflex digital option for the non-S2 crowd,

so how's this for a solution to the orphaned R lens? - It draws revenue that is now going

to Canon with its wonderful 5DII, keeps the faith with the red dot fanatics, leverages an

existing business relationship with Panasonic, and looks to me like a win-win-win

solution.

[stuny]

Dick -

 

When you consider that the D-Lux-2 came out not much after the D2, thereby confusing some people with the nomenclature, since your theory involves a V-Lux 2, and there is already a V-Lux 20, just to continue the tradition of confusion you might be right.

[jl4069]

Anyone think there will be a new Leica Body in 3 weeks like the Leica rumors site was reporting? thanks, J in nyc

[mooky]

Leica has thrown many hints in various places. Seems to have something to do with an 'R' solution and there have been many topics about such possibilities here.

 

I guess I'll be disappointed if they don't show something along the lines of an 'R' lens solution. But as to what it might be - the only thing Leica has said is it wouldn't be a DSLR - so who the heck really knows other than testers and Leica?

[Wiggi]

I guess the "digital solution" for R-lenses is the body of the X1 with the ability to mount the R-optic, like the Sony NEX. Named "Leica X-R".

[earleygallery]

what size sensor is the Vlux2 or equivalent?

[andybarton]

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Nowhere near big enough to provide an acceptable R solution.

 

One might as well say that the Digilux-3 was an acceptable R solution. No R user is going to accept anything "from Leica" that provides a worse overall experience, and output, than the DMR. If Leica propose such a "solution", IMHO, they will be a laughing stock.

[jaapv]

No X1 - it will be full frame (whenever it comes..)

[adan]

I think there is some confusion here:

 

There will almost certainly be a D-Lux 5 based on the Panny LX-5 (zoom range increased to 24-90) - if only because Leica has to take what Panny is currently building.

 

There is already a V-Lux 20 from PanaLeica, based on the Panny ZS-7 (25-300 zoom, GPS location system)

 

Panasonic announced an FZ (not LX) 100 last month. Possibly there could be a Leica-badged version of this. Although two different V-Luxes seems unlikely to me.

 

In any case, all those cameras use 4mm x 6mm (approx) sensors - a 6x crop factor. They won't be the basis of ANY interchangeable-lens camera of any type.

 

We've been over and over the "R solution." Leica builds one more-or-less-traditional mirror-and-ground-glass SLR. It's called the S2, and it costs $24,000. If they build a smaller version with a smaller chip, the assembly costs are not going to be reduced all that much.

 

Even if we assume a $10,000 savings in using a FF (or smaller) sensor instead of the S2's 30 x 45 sensor, that still means a $14,000 SLR

 

(It's the same problem car makers face - there is a certain cost involved in assembling 4,000 parts, regardless of whether the result is a cheap subcompact or a very profitable SUV.)

 

Andy B. may well be right that there is a disconnect between what R users will accept - and what Leica is willing to spend money building. Which may explain why the "R solution" remains in limbo.

[lct]

No X1 - it will be full frame (whenever it comes..)

Or APS? Hard to imagine Pana taking the FF plunge right now but i may be wrong (hopefully).

[jaapv]

It need not be Panasonic.

[dickgrafixstop]

It need not be Panasonic. That's true, but what other candidate?

 

Olympus seems dedicated to micro 4/3

 

Pentax is barely holding on in spite of an infusion of Hoya money

 

Samsung would like to break into the high end photo market, but is stuck with Pentax

 

Fuji - are they still trying with old Nikon stuff? At least they have money.

 

Kodak? interesting partner in need of shoring up market segments (and a pretty damn

good chip-maker)

 

Sony? A good candidate since their Minolta remnants aren't doing very well in the

marketplace. They have experience with Kodak chips, but.......

 

Nikon? Canon? profit potential would be a rounding error

 

Cosina? Mr. Koboyashi seems to like old Deutsch brands, but his hands may be full

(or tied) with Zeiss

 

No, if not a "Leica" original a'la the X1, Panasonic would be my bet!

[dickgrafixstop]

just re-read adan's reply

 

"We've been over and over the "R solution." Leica builds one more-or-less-traditional mirror-and-ground-glass SLR. It's called the S2, and it costs $24,000. If they build a smaller version with a smaller chip, the assembly costs are not going to be reduced all that much.

 

Even if we assume a $10,000 savings in using a FF (or smaller) sensor instead of the S2's 30 x 45 sensor, that still means a $14,000 SLR"

 

No wonder Leica got out of the market... assuming your numbers are reasonable (and they seem to be) - there's a perfectly good R solution right now - the Canon 5DMkII and it only

costs less that $2400. Full frame, high resolution, incredible color. acceptable with manual focus R lens albeit an adapter is required, and CHEAP.

 

Assuming Leica could hit your $14,000 targer, how much of a died in the wool Leica fanatic would you have to be to spend 600 percent more net money for a red dot?

If you're onlyl 300 percent wrong and leica could hit a 7500 target, it would still be three

times the cost of a very adequate solution.

 

You can save your confederate money boys, but I wouldn't wait for the South to rise again.

[adan]

"Somebody" is obviously giving Leica some digital support with the X1 - I think that is the "somebody" jaap may be thinking of. No one has ever definitively identified the "somebody," however.

 

Your list is good, although I'd add that: a) there are rumors Sony wants out of the full-frame sensor market anyway - Cosina doesn't do digital - they provided mechanical camera construction support to Epson, who did the digital work on the R-D1 - c) Kodak no longer makes CMOS, which would be required for a live-view or EVF R solution.

 

Having used both the 5D and 5DII with an R adapter (and moved on each time), I do somewhat understand why some would be willing to pay a premium for a body more like a film R: full-aperture metering at any aperture, a finder designed for manual focus around an OEM split-image ground-glass, real shutter dial. I found out that with a non-chipped adapter, the 5Ds assume there is no lens mounted and dim the finder readout to near invisibility, so that I could neither meter manually nor even see what shutter speed the camera was choosing.

 

Not to mention AA-filtered CMOS vs. (presumably - had Leica built their own) non-low-pass-filtered CCD color and resolution.

 

Leica's own estimate, in explaining why they canceled the R system, was that a digital R10 would have priced out at €7,000. Or $9,000-$11,000 - depending on which month one converts euros to dollars. That was at the time of the ~$1.45 euro.

 

The problem with all this parsing of the "R solution" is that most of it (e.g. "it will be full-frame") is based on off-hand comments by officials at a company that has done more about-faces in policy over the past 5 years than the guards at Buckingham Palace.

 

I don't blame Leica, since they are a small company sailing in rough seas. But I no longer pay any attention to what they say - I wait and see what they actually produce.

 

To add to the rumor mill - it has been noted by sources outside the LUF and close to Leica that Maike Harberts, the original product manager for the S2, has been unseen and undercover for quite a few months. Who knows what she has been working on?

[lct]

An APS EVIL sounds more credible, from Panasonic at least. Just a guess though.

[andybarton]

Is Frau Harberts still at Leica?

 

An APS solution would not satisfy R users, I would suggest.

 

I think it's time for us to move on, if APS is the best solution on offer.

[lct]

Yes APS and auto brightening with manual lenses sound more credible in the short term. Now if the EVF is good and if the new platform fits M lenses as well some of us could be tempted perhaps. If if if maybe.

[eleskin]

I see the possibility of an X1 type camera with the M9 sensor and a clip on EVF. This would allow the use of all M and R lenses with an R adapter similar to what people are now doing with some micro 4/3 models. It would not be cheap, but it would not be as expensive as the M9. Maybe $4,000 USD or do. It would not threaten the M9 in that it is not a true rangefinder. However, it would be a great second camera for M9 owners, and it would offer nice options for people who need critical focus capability with telephotos and fast lenses like the Noctilux as well as those who use R lenses or any other lens ever made with adapters.

[rosuna]

The M9 sensor doesn't allow live view, eleskin. It is not so easy.

 

I guess Leica would prefer the largest sensor available to them, for the "R solution" but also for a X1 type camera. They had all the cameras built around the 24x36mm format, from small compacts to the M and R systems. Now they have placed the reflex system at a higher level, but they have moved the M system to their historical format as soon as they were able to do it, and they will do the same, I suppose, with the X1 successors and with any all new system with interchangeable lenses they propose (if any).

 

For live view they need CMOS sensors, and different motherboards, processors, etc. So the "availability" problem is more complex than getting a CMOS sensor from a supplier. They need to get access to or develop) a complete set of technologies, and it is not an easy task.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[mooky]

here's my 80 cents worth for the 20th time...........Full Frame R solution or I' ll be disappointed in Leica - but I think we'll be happy about what's coming.

 

No, I don't know at all, just a reasonable hunch based on the hints that have been thrown and on how they've never had a system for so long to just drop it and it's users flat on the sidewalk.Yes, I know they stopped making the R system - which shouldn't have been a surprise given that they said a new system was then inbound.

 

I'm just trying to trust in my hunch as the moment of reckoning is almost here without getting impatient.