Are you "aware" of different M8/9 bokeh?

[swamiji]

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You have to stay at the same distance to do valid comparisons. Same lens, same subject distance, same aperture = same bokeh.

 

True, but your subject would be smaller on the M9. For a lab test that might be acceptable, but in real life if you want the same subject size, then you will have altered your bokeh. Considering the similarities between sensors of the two camera's, at the same distance, same lens, etc. I would expect the bokeh would be pretty close the same. In practice, I would expect differently.

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[lct]

Perspective and Dof will change if we change subject distance so the pics won't look the same obviously. But the lens won't stop producing doubled lines if it does and sharp or soft edges around bright OoF areas will stay sharp or soft as well.

[SJP]

Poor original poster if a wrong answer really was the best he's gonna get ...

 

 

 

You are confusing lack of DOF and bokeh again

No I am not, you will get "more" bokeh due to the smaller DoF (due to the crop factor difference), the quality of the bokeh will be identical obviously. IE the OOF rendering will have the same character.

 

Whether this can be quantified or not is another matter, probably yes using MTF, fourier optics etc. but this is not interesting enough to spend any time on AFAIAC.

[lct]

Bokeh is a qualitative term as i understand it. Bokeh may be smooth, harsh, pleasant, ugly and so on. Not wide, shallow or heavy . Matter of terms though.

[01af]

You are confusing lack of DOF and bokeh again

No, I am not ...

Oh yes, you are.

 

 

... you will get "more" bokeh due to the smaller DoF (due to the crop factor difference) ...

No, you won't. Bokeh is nothing you can have 'more' or 'less' of.

 

DOF is.

 

 

... the quality of the bokeh will be identical obviously.

'The quality of the bokeh' is as nonsensical as, for example, 'the value of a number,' 'the length of a distance,' or 'the speed of a velocity.' Bokeh is a quality.

 

 

IE the OOF rendering will have the same character.

Exactly. Ergo—same bokeh.

[SJP]

Do you actually enjoy the personality you appear to have or is it an impediment?

[adan]

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But the lens won't stop producing doubled lines if it does and sharp or soft edges around bright OoF areas will stay sharp or soft as well.

 

Actually, my experience is that some lenses (e.g. the 35 v.4 Summicron) do change their bokeh characteristics somewhat at different relative subject/background distances.

 

My 35 'cron @ f/2 often produces very nasty bright rings (subject at 0.7 meter, background at 20 meters), but also produces fairly smooth bokeh (subject at 2 meters, background at 50 meters). It all has to do with how the blur circles overlap, how large they are, and how aberrations affect the distribution of the light rays by the time they get to the image plane.

 

I would add, however, that that lens is an extreme case and that most of the other lenses I have used are more consistent in their bokeh over a range of subject/background situations.

 

But we agree that "bokeh" is the quality of the blur, not the quantity.

 

Otherwise, I am with swamiji - this is not about lab tests, it is about real-world photographs. In which the crop-factor of a camera will affect field of view, and thus a creative photographer is going to change position, or change lenses, to get similar photographs with the M8 vs. the M9.

 

It is the same issue that cropped up when the M9 first came out and I posted examples Sept. 10 comparing M8/M9 at the same field of view (15mm on the M8, 21mm on the M9). Some forum members felt I should have used the same lens on both cameras.

 

But to me that is pointless measurbation. If I want a picture with the subject-to-background relationship, or quote-perspective-unquote, or framing/FoV of a roughly 70mm lens on 35mm film, I am going to use a 75mm on the M9, a 50mm on the M8, an 18mm on a Digilux 2 and a 250mm if I were shooting 4x5 film.

 

That is the only comparison that counts. And if, as is likely, each of those focal lengths also produces different "bokeh" in addition to different DoF, then "bokeh" will vary with image format - and I will be aware of it.

[Stealth3kpl]

Do you actually enjoy the personality you appear to have or is it an impediment?

 

Ha ha! I'll have to remember that line for some "members of the public" I have to endure.

Pete

[lct]

...But to me that is pointless measurbation. If I want a picture with the subject-to-background relationship, or quote-perspective-unquote, or framing/FoV of a roughly 70mm lens on 35mm film, I am going to use a 75mm on the M9, a 50mm on the M8, an 18mm on a Digilux 2 and a 250mm if I were shooting 4x5 film. That is the only comparison that counts. And if, as is likely, each of those focal lengths also produces different "bokeh" in addition to different DoF, then "bokeh" will vary with image format - and I will be aware of it.

Bokeh will vary with lenses if you change them of course. But you won't compare so-called 'M8 bokeh' to 'M9 bokeh' any more. Only 75/2 or 75/1.4 (quite different) bokeh to 50/2 or 50/1.4 (quite different) bokeh. Agree?

[adan]

Agree - but I wouldn't expect anything else. Except for changing focal lengths to account for the crop difference, worrying about M9 bokeh vs M8 bokeh is like worrying about Kodachrome bokeh vs. Ektachrome bokeh.

[plasticman]

These discussions go around and around, and similarly to the oft-stated claim that the M9 sensor does not clip highlights as abruptly as the M8 sensor, I seldom get to see the pictorial evidence.

Plenty of people have both cameras now - anyone willing to put up a few carefully controlled test DNGs on senditsafe or similar, so we can come to some documented consensus?

 

As for bokeh - I'm currently MARVELLING (seriously) at the bokeh characteristics of film again, after test-scanning some old Portra shots on the Coolscan9000. Truly incredible - and quite different in character to digital bokeh. A matter of taste which one might prefer, but once we've started this discussion, why not throw film into the stew...?

[jaapv]

Imo, Mani, there is no real difference in highlight clipping. What people are seeing is a difference in the exposure meter, both the metering field and the exposure level bias, and maybe, just maybe, the altered green-red relationship might give more balanced clipping levels in the green and red channel. And, of course, the improved noise behaviour gives us a chance to expose more to the left without getting noisy shadows. And let's keep our cooking pots for film and digital separate, to avoid a new battle in this thread.

[Jamie Roberts]

Imo, Mani, there is no real difference in highlight clipping. What people are seeing is a difference in the exposure meter, both the metering field and the exposure level bias, and maybe, just maybe, the altered green-red relationship might give more balanced clipping levels in the green and red channel. And, of course, the improved noise behaviour gives us a chance to expose more to the left without getting noisy shadows. And let's keep our cooking pots for film and digital separate, to avoid a new battle in this thread.

 

I totally agree with Jaap on all counts; so far, it looks like the M9 is colour balanced a little differently, and that the meter is a wee bit less sensitive to light (it actually aligns more closely to my sekonic meter than the M8 does).

[exile]

Sometimes I wish that we were all physically present for these discussions.

 

Just sayin.

[Xmas]

Do you actually enjoy the personality you appear to have or is it an impediment?

 

Wonderful question.

Do you go to pantomines at Xmas?

 

Noel

[jaapv]

Sometimes I wish that we were all physically present for these discussions.

 

Just sayin.

I suppose you would have had a season ticket to the Circus Maximus too...

[exile]

Yup.

 

Not sure I could restrict myself to just throwing popcorn.

Petty and rude behaviour makes my blood boil.

The vast majority of people deserve respect.

[SJP]

Wonderful question.

Do you go to pantomines at Xmas?

 

Noel

Sorry I can't comment on that as I have lived in NL so long that the pantomime tradition has never been a part of my personal experience. If I understand correctly there are often evil witches involved, an appealing role, & also song, dance, merriment and general deflation of self-importance. This sounds appealing.

 

Did you have anything in particular in mind? Just curious.

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[Guest Lotw]

Am I aware? More of that: this was the main reason for me to invest in an M9, not specifically the bo-keh indeed, which is lens- and not camera-dependent, but the shallower depth of field given a certain lens with the bigger sensor, which gives extra creative possibilities to isolate subject from background.