Spiller interview in Welt Online

[ArtZ]

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Franck,

 

Please, could you stop kidnapping every single thread? I'm not interested in your CEO free trainning lessons. This thread is about the article in "Die Welt online". Most of your posts are absolutely off topic.

 

Thank you

 

PS: I don't understand why some other people keep encouraging him answering to his posts. C'est vraiment un grand n'importe quoi !

[Guest BigSplash]

Congratulations on finally seeing the light.

 

The reason there will probably never be volume production of a Leica M camera IS BECAUSE THERE ISN'T A MARKET TO SUPPORT SUCH PRODUCTION, AND IN A WORLD OF MASS PRODUCED "ME TOO" PRODUCTS IT'S LEICA'S MAIN USP.

 

I assume you know what a USP is.

Steve what I cannot understand is that:

Cheap Compacts & phone cameras: Many 10's of millions units per year

Quality none reflex cameras: Few Million Units per year

Leica M series 10 to 12K units per year

Cheap DSLR's: Many 10's of millions per year

High end DSLR's: Many Million Units per year

 

If the above is correct and I believe from the market research reports I have seen that it is why the targeted market cannot grow to say 300KUnits per year or more. What is holding it back?

I also think mass production does not mean it has to be "Me Too"...think of the iPhone, and many other examples that are mass produced but differentiated. Why I ask is it the case that you feel that Leica cannot do this?

 

People here are now saying that Leica have people sitting at Panasonic watching large volumes being produced ..have they learned nothing?

[Guest BigSplash]

Franck,

 

Please, could you stop kidnapping every single thread? I'm not interested in your CEO free trainning lessons. This thread is about the article in "Die Welt online". Most of your posts are absolutely off topic.

 

Thank you

 

PS: I don't understand why some other people keep encouraging him answering to his posts. C'est vraiment un grand n'importe quoi !

 

Excuse me you are right...I actually have tried to go back to the Spiller comments which sparked the controversy about what Leica is trying to address as its target market, which I like you disagree with.

 

Anyhow I shall try to refrain because I agree with you.

[lct]

...I don't understand why some other people keep encouraging him answering to his posts...

+1

[Douglas Sharp]

K-h,

moin aus Hannover - duldsamkeit/geduldsamkeit (wie archaisch) is actually very probably what he meant, and has, as you know, more to do with patience - in this sense, indeed "long-suffering" (which in itself has nothing to do with suffering in the sense of pain, torture, passion or sorrow) could be an adequate (but not adäquat) translation, and - surprise, surprise, has another meaning: tolerant

 

Take a look at Goethe, even his "Die Leiden des jungen Werther" is generally accepted in translation as being "The sorrows of young Werther" - ergo - Spiller could have meant "the ability to show sorrow" - which is rubbish!

 

Spillers sentence mentioning Leidensfähigkeit and Leiden:

 

"Welt Online: Your customers have to show amazing tolerance and often wait months for an M9. Why can't your production keep up with demand?"

 

"Rudolf Spiller: It is indeed true that customer-tolerance (or patience) is extremely stretched when brand-identification is so intense. In one sense, that¹s good, but of course we don’t like to let anyone suffer unduly. The reason for the waiting times is that we have 40% more orders for the M9 than we would have expected from our experience with its predecessors."

 

There is no reason whatsoever here to assume that Leidensfähigkeit and Leiden must be translated in an identical manner. (In fact German writers usually tend to avoid repeating the same word in a sentence)

 

Having the patience to wait long periods for something (i.e. tolerating such long waits and problems) is quite probably much nearer the mark. It is clear that the 1:1 translations so often misused in G-to-E translations would point to something to do with suffering, but translation must always be an interpretation of what was meant, and not necessarily a precise transcription of the wording into another language.

 

LEO, although very good, requires interpretation and context to be used correctly, and is about as precise as Wikipedia. ProZ, where the professional translators of the world gather, is more reliable.

 

Grüße aus Hannover

Douglas

[luigi bertolotti]

Well, I think Spiller words have been esegetically interpreted/translated with a level of depth paired only by some Holy Bible specialists... now we can take a breath and wait...

[jaapv]

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Thank you, Douglas, for a sane explanation why the International forum is so upset, whilst the German forum is discussing VW Beetles...

[earleygallery]

We're coming back to the same arguments again and again. That's how you read it. (Or that's probably how you read Google's translation or what others have said here.) But it's not what he has said. Again: He did not talk about "technically skilled photographers". He didn't even mention photography, but instead talked about technology enthusiasts which is really something totally different - and what I and others have issues with.

 

(Yeah, it's only a short interview, but after all it's the CEO of the company talking to a newspaper with nationwide distribution. Given that most of the discussions on this forum are about rumors, complaints, or wishes, this is probably at least as relevant...)

 

Well as previous and subsequent posts have shown, it seems that not everyone can agree on the precise translation! There are words and there are meanings after all.

[thrid]

Leica has always appealed to people because of its cost and exclusivity, but that isn't the only reason he gives for people buying Leicas. Personally I'm much more annoyed with collectors who buy the cameras and lenses with no intention of ever using them. That to me is a waste of fine engineering.

 

Leica used to appeal to customers, because they made the best cameras and lenses on the market.

They were serious tools, for serious work, not fashion accessories.

 

 

Welt Online: Herr Spiller, eines Ihrer neuen Produkte, die Leica M9, kostet 5500 Euro. Wer gibt so viel Geld für einen Fotoapparat aus?

 

Translation:

"Mr Spiller, one of your new products, the Leica M9, costs 5500 Euro. Who spends that much money on a camera?"

 

Rudolf Spiller: Da gibt es zunächst die Sammler, die jedes M-Modell kaufen, das wir auf den Markt bringen. Es gibt technikbegeisterte Kunden, die eine höchstwertige Kamera mit einem digitalen Sensor im Vollformat suchen. Und es gibt die ambitionierten Fotografen, die nicht irgendeine Kamera wollen, sondern eine mit dem roten Leica-Punkt. Die wollen beste Qualität und sie wollen zeigen, dass sie sich das leisten können.

 

Translation:

"For one thing there are the collectors, who buy every M-model that we bring to market. Then there are technologists who want a full format sensor in a compact package. And there are the brand conscious customers who don't want just any camera, but one with the red dot. They want a high quality camera that is also a status symbol reflecting their ability to afford such an expensive item."

 

I don't think I heard the word 'photographer' or 'professional photographer' mentioned once in his summary of who Leica's customer base is. Instead he described their customers as people who are purchasing a Leica because of the brand name and as a status symbol. Basically Leica thinks of itself as the Gucci of the camera world. But even Gucci doesn't only sell Haute Couture. The bulk of Gucci's income comes from the low and mid range of their product line. The high end material provides a halo effect that is exploited as a marketing tool.

 

Pretty pathetic if you ask me. Looks like the Hermes years did more damage than anyone expected, but then again this is very similar to the attitude that drove the German camera industry over the edge in to the abyss in the 1960's.

[jaapv]

I have a feeling quite a bit of Dr. Spillers discourse in the part where he says "high quality camera" got lost in the transription by the media. The PR department should have picked that up when (one should hope it was!) the article was submitted before publication. One cannot assume that somebody who makes his career in the optical industry is unaware of the fact that photographers exist.

[Guest BigSplash]

Leica used to appeal to customers, because they made the best cameras and lenses on the market.

They were serious tools, for serious work, not fashion accessories.

 

 

Welt Online: Herr Spiller, eines Ihrer neuen Produkte, die Leica M9, kostet 5500 Euro. Wer gibt so viel Geld für einen Fotoapparat aus?

 

Translation:

"Mr Spiller, one of your new products, the Leica M9, costs 5500 Euro. Who spends that much money on a camera?"

 

Rudolf Spiller: Da gibt es zunächst die Sammler, die jedes M-Modell kaufen, das wir auf den Markt bringen. Es gibt technikbegeisterte Kunden, die eine höchstwertige Kamera mit einem digitalen Sensor im Vollformat suchen. Und es gibt die ambitionierten Fotografen, die nicht irgendeine Kamera wollen, sondern eine mit dem roten Leica-Punkt. Die wollen beste Qualität und sie wollen zeigen, dass sie sich das leisten können.

 

Translation:

"For one thing there are the collectors, who buy every M-model that we bring to market. Then there are technologists who want a full format sensor in a compact package. And there are the brand conscious customers who don't want just any camera, but one with the red dot. They want a high quality camera that is also a status symbol reflecting their ability to afford such an expensive item."

 

I don't think I heard the word 'photographer' or 'professional photographer' mentioned once in his summary of who Leica's customer base is. Instead he described their customers as people who are purchasing a Leica because of the brand name and as a status symbol. Basically Leica thinks of itself as the Gucci of the camera world. But even Gucci doesn't only sell Haute Couture. The bulk of Gucci's income comes from the low and mid range of their product line. The high end material provides a halo effect that is exploited as a marketing tool.

 

Pretty pathetic if you ask me. Looks like the Hermes years did more damage than anyone expected, but then again this is very similar to the attitude that drove the German camera industry over the edge in to the abyss in the 1960's.

Thrid I agree with you completely. It seems that Herr Spiller's comments echo what we see from Leica since years. I had hoped that Dr Kaufmann was taking the company in new directions but apparently not.

I suppose that they will next offer various fancy leather options, a saphire glass rear screen, at prices above £6000 and not fix the bugs or other issues. I am really upset by Herr Spiller's comments to a level that I am rethinking if I wish to buy more lenses and a M10 for a company with such a mentality. I thought I would never feel that way.

I am like some others already have going to write to him

[jaapv]

M10?? Earth calling Wolkenkuckcucksland - it is 2010 right now - there is no M10....

rethinking if I wish to buy more lenses and a M10 for a company with such a mentality.

[Guest BigSplash]

M10?? Earth calling Wolkenkuckcucksland - it is 2010 right now - there is no M10....

 

Look Jaapv there are many issues with M9 as reported here, it is a stop gap camera as others have said.

I used to believe that a M10 would surface that was a real world beater and not a luxury accessory that may take photos. I lived in hope that Leica would revert to looking after its client base in a proper fashion.

What I have now woken up to is that Herr Spiller clearly sees his client base as he has described and is out to milk them ...I do not wish to be milked to fund the repositioning of the company for S2 pros or whatever.

I had coveted the idea of buying a M10 and getting some high end wide angle ASPH lenses but frankly Spiller has opened my eyes.

Very sad

[andybarton]

Where has Leica said that it's a stop gap camera?

 

Where has anyone said that a future M10 will not be a "world beater" (whatever that means)?

 

I think that there is far too much being read into this on-line newspaper article. Since when did sane, intelligent people start believeing what they read in the papers?

 

Have Leica suddenly stopped making M cameras or lenses? No. Have they stopped work on an M10? Who knows? Probably not. Has Frank's M8 suddenly stopped working? No (otherwise we'd have heard about it). Is Leica a disfunctional company? No.

 

Should we just let them get on with it? Rhetorical.

[jaapv]

Look Jaapv there are many issues with M9 as reported here, it is a stop gap camera as others have said.

Who has said that? Again, when you start making these sweeping incorrect statements you revert to phrases like "it is said" "I am told" and similar to hide behind which are semantically without content. I only read niggles and teething troubles, about as expected, offset by enthusiastic reports by real world users. So please stop trolling about a product that you have no first-hand experience with. Yes- there are things that need to be addressed with this camera and things I personally would like to see differently solved, but Leica clearly has come through with the first firmware update, and it won't be the last. In the meantime it is a considerably better camera than the M8 out of the starting blocks, which gives you a reference point, as the M8 was, (in retrospect for some:rolleyes:), quite a good camera as well.

[pop]

Rudolf Spiller: Da gibt es zunächst die Sammler, die jedes M-Modell kaufen, das wir auf den Markt bringen. Es gibt technikbegeisterte Kunden, die eine höchstwertige Kamera mit einem digitalen Sensor im Vollformat suchen. Und es gibt die ambitionierten Fotografen, die nicht irgendeine Kamera wollen, sondern eine mit dem roten Leica-Punkt. Die wollen beste Qualität und sie wollen zeigen, dass sie sich das leisten können.

 

Translation:

"For one thing there are the collectors, who buy every M-model that we bring to market. Then there are technologists who want a full format sensor in a compact package. And there are the brand conscious customers who don't want just any camera, but one with the red dot. They want a high quality camera that is also a status symbol reflecting their ability to afford such an expensive item."

 

I don't think I heard the word 'photographer' or 'professional photographer' mentioned once in his summary of who Leica's customer base is.

 

The translation is faulty. It translates "technikbegeisterte Kunden" as "technologists" when it should say "customers who are fond of technology". It translates "ambitionierte Fotografen" as "brand conscious customers" when it should say "ambitious photographers".

 

Hence, the German text includes the word "Photographer" if you go to the trouble of actually looking at it.

[jaapv]

And reads totally different. I, for one, recognize myself in the phrase: "ambitionierte Fotografen".

[andybarton]

Me too. I'm all for "me too"s in this context.

 

Funny how no one spotted the word "Fotografen" before.

[stunsworth]

I had coveted the idea of buying a M10 and getting some high end wide angle ASPH lenses but frankly Spiller has opened my eyes.

Very sad

 

I'll repeat myself, you are reading a lot into a very short and probably highly edited interview. You have no idea of what other statements Herr Spiller may have made that were omitted from the magazine article.

 

You use the forum to bash Leica at every opportunity. I'm not saying they are perfect - no company is - but I do not believe they are anywhere nearly as bad as your constant stream of negativity would suggest. My impression is that every message you post is negatively critical of Leica - both of its products and its management.

 

I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that you are not a fool, but a troll with an agenda.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[thrid]

The translation is faulty. It translates "technikbegeisterte Kunden" as "technologists" when it should say "customers who are fond of technology". It translates "ambitionierte Fotografen" as "brand conscious customers" when it should say "ambitious photographers".

 

Hence, the German text includes the word "Photographer" if you go to the trouble of actually looking at it.

 

Technologists are people who are fond or intrigued by technology.

 

If you really, really want to be accurate in the translation, it would have to be expressed in a sentence, rather than an individual word.

 

"Es gibt technikbegeisterte Kunden, die eine höchstwertige Kamera mit einem digitalen Sensor im Vollformat suchen. "

 

You could translate "technikbegeisterte Kunden" as:

 

- customers who "lay great value on" or are "intrigued by the technology" and craft of taking pictures.

Technician is a little something of an ugly word, because it basically means calling these people 'pixel-peepers'

 

 

> It translates "ambitionierte Fotografen" as "brand conscious customers" when it should say "ambitious >photographers".

 

The closest term is probably what in English we call a ' photo enthusiast', but he does very clearly say:

 

"Und es gibt die ambitionierten Fotografen, die nicht irgendeine Kamera wollen, sondern eine mit dem roten Leica-Punkt. Die wollen beste Qualität und sie wollen zeigen, dass sie sich das leisten können."

 

"And there are the photo enthusiasts who don't just want any camera, but one with a red dot. They want the highest quality, and want to demonstrate that they can afford it (i.e. a status symbol)."