ho_co Posted November 25, 2009 Share #21 Posted November 25, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) andalus-- It's likely that when you ordered they told you they would charge your card immediately. At least that has been the case when I dealt with them on backordered merchandise. You could have refused then; you could ask for a refund now. But I don't see how you can be angry with them. When you asked when your camera would come, the B&H employee apparently actually tried to find out. But since Leica US can't tell them when your camera will come, how could he tell you? Your best bet now IMO would be to sit tight. B&H is a major dealer for Leica. You've already paid, you're in the queue, you're not the only one waiting, they're a reputable concern and you'll get the camera from them when they get it. I'm more interested in the pay-now-we'll-ship-ASAP policy. Does anyone know whether it stems from a particular Orthodox interpretation of the Torah? Or maybe it derives from an attempt to protect your credit card? That is, if hackers break into the B&H system, maybe the credit card numbers of already-processed orders are less accessible? It's an interesting policy. Just curious where it comes from. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 25, 2009 Posted November 25, 2009 Hi ho_co, Take a look here Bitched like Hell.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
milyovsky Posted November 25, 2009 Share #22 Posted November 25, 2009 What is a "random employee?" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuckley Posted November 25, 2009 Share #23 Posted November 25, 2009 While every dealer is free to run his/her business in any way they please, hearing this makes me appreciate David Farkas even more as he is an outstanding guy that really goes the extra mile for his customers (regardless of their geographic location)... Anyone still waiting for an M9 should definitely give him a call and get on his list as he only takes names (and not credit cards) in advance and once your M9 comes in you have no obligations to purchase it if you were able to find one or if you changed your mind. Cheers, Amen to everything you wrote about David. He is honorable and honest, tells you what he can tell you and what he can't. A truly terrific person to deal with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammam Posted November 25, 2009 Share #24 Posted November 25, 2009 What is a "random employee?" That's an employee from the Portable Entertainment department who randomly passed by the phone just when it rang, and decided to answer. He then went to randomly ask to whoever could hear him when the M9 would be shipped, and got a random answer, which he proceeded to relay to the OP. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammam Posted November 25, 2009 Share #25 Posted November 25, 2009 I don't know. That's kind of my point. Nobody know, nobody is "right". Since this whole B&H thing seems to bother you so much maybe you should call and ask them! ... You know what? I might actually do that. because I do business with B&H from time to time and I want to know exactly where they stand on that «pay now and wait» policy. Like, will they apply it to all of their back-ordered products from now on? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted November 25, 2009 Share #26 Posted November 25, 2009 andalus-- I'm sure you've seen daveleo's signature: the polite answer is always better than the god-awful truth. That's certainly apropos here. Instead of saying "Gee, I don't know," the phone representative should have returned after a break of several seconds and said, "Looks like two weeks, maybe a little more." Then he could have added, "But don't worry, it won't put a hole in your holiday accounts, because we've already billed it." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_lir Posted November 25, 2009 Share #27 Posted November 25, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) That's why I go with Classic Connection. Sam's a great guy, and he takes care of his customers very well. I buy all of my gear through him and have no qualms about it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted November 25, 2009 Share #28 Posted November 25, 2009 I paid 7K USD in full over a month ago- it was my choice as i wanted to lock in a good exchange rate at that date. However at that time my dealer expected delivery of stocks towards the end of October. Those deliveries seem not to have eventuated. From discussions with other dealers here in Australia I got the same impression- cameras were expected but didn't show up. It seems clear there is no real explanation from Leica to the dealers so they cannot respong to questions about expected delivery, and it is also clear this was all unexpected. I personally am in favour of Leica coming clean and making a statement on the issue. As I have said before would prefer news even if it is bad. If there is a problem in the supply chain: so be it- what can you do? If there is a glitch in the camera- by all means repair it- before you ship any more cameras. But the silence is deafening and fertile ground for rumour. I think Leica still havn't even listed 09/09/09 on the Leica news release pages.... I would of thought it was there biggest news in an age... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mokkacream Posted November 25, 2009 Share #29 Posted November 25, 2009 Apparently, in another thread titled «B&H photo M9 delivery changes» many people find this perfectly normal and not crazy at all. I don't, and I said so. I hate having been right. Perfectly normal? Paying the full amount of 7k in advance? A 7k credit? What about the interest? Paying a 2k non-refundable deposit? A interest free money gift? What, if they took 40 preorders, closed their business and disappeared? With 80k cash? Because you agreed to give a non refundable deposit? I paid 7K USD in full over a month ago- it was my choice as i wanted to lock in a good exchange rate at that date. However at that time my dealer expected delivery of stocks towards the end of October. Those deliveries seem not to have eventuated. From discussions with other dealers here in Australia I got the same impression- cameras were expected but didn't show up. It seems clear there is no real explanation from Leica to the dealers so they cannot respong to questions about expected delivery, and it is also clear this was all unexpected. I personally am in favour of Leica coming clean and making a statement on the issue. Maybe in USA. And in Australia as well? To ask for that preconditions as a dealer is illegal in Europe, luckily. The only scenario, where it is common and fine asking a deposit of about 5-25% is for a "custom made article" order, e.g. a special bike frame, or a Leica M9 a la carte. The Leica M9 is so much demanded, that it would be easy to just sell it to the next one on the list. So why do they ask money for a preorder? I read a lot over people, who set themselves on mutiple lists in the US. That means, for one being set on 5 lists, 4 dealers would miss out. Creating a lot of chaos and unreliability. No patience? No trust? No reliability? Egocentric? Maybe you are just paying the price for that through being forced to accept such rediculous requirements for ordering a M9 in North America. I experienced the other way around: I ordered the M9 together with some lenses, got offered a 8% discount and got everything within 2 weeks. That's clever business. I got what I wanted even cheaper and they got an extra earning on the lenses and a happy client, who will definitely order with them again, when necessary, wouldn't I? Maybe it is an idea, to order with a Leica dealer in Germany, to get a flight, pick it up, enjoy a whole weekend in Germany, use your Leica the first time in the country where it was born, take a break with a good beer and bring a lot of pictures home after all. That should be worth the extra money. Waiting 4 months having spend 7k without getting what you desired, would mean stress, unhappiness and appr. 250$ lossed interest. In the case of Australia, I must admit, that's not a practical solution because of the long distance and much more expensive flights. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhoersch Posted November 25, 2009 Share #30 Posted November 25, 2009 I'm sorry, but who is that crazy to pay the full price for any ordered article in advance? Who is even that much more crazy to pay for an article, which is known for its unavailability and costs more than 7k???? I do not understand. This is far away from any rational decision. This forum is not about rational decisions, it's about Leica! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted November 25, 2009 Share #31 Posted November 25, 2009 Frankly I find it just unbelievable to have to pay before getting the camera, specially for a good customer. At our local camera store a good customer is put on the waiting list without having to pay a penny for it. Thats how I got my M9 1 day after the release. But taking all the money...unbelievable. I would certainly ask my money back and still expect to get the next M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtZ Posted November 25, 2009 Share #32 Posted November 25, 2009 this forum is not about rational decisions, it's about leica! rolfmao Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yanidel Posted November 25, 2009 Share #33 Posted November 25, 2009 To ask for that preconditions as a dealer is illegal in Europe, luckily. It is not illegal in France and is common business practice. The only thing is that if a dealer asks you for a non-refundable deposit, they must clearly state the delivery date on the order. If there is no delivery date, the contract is not legal therefore you could void it and ask for a refund. The deposit is also claimable if delivery date is not respected. Most dealers do not know that rule or decide to ignore it as most customers are not aware of it. And sincerely, in 99% of cases you have a great transaction with both parties satisfied so this business practice is not a big issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahl Posted November 25, 2009 Share #34 Posted November 25, 2009 I am sad to hear of the high-handed treatment by your trusted dealer in the USA I hope you get your M9 soon it is well worth the wait but I do understand your frustration having had to pay in full up front. This is really bad PR for B&H as they surely cannot envisage having problems selling any spare M9s. I have had a vastly different experience from my small Leica Dealer in the UK. I have dealt amicably with them (H.A.Baker) for quite a few years. When the M9 was rumoured I rang them in August to ask to be put on a waiting list if the M9 was officially anounced. I did not put myself on any other list as I was quite relaxed about being an early adopter in case there were teething troubles with the first production run. They contacted me after the 9th September asking me to confirm my order. They did not ask for a deposit or any payment. In October I was lucky enough to actually get my M9. As a loyal customer I was offered a very reasonable part exchange deal for my M8 and have been using my M9 since then. Incidentally it is everything I was hoping for. I have rediscovered my lenses at their proper focal length, the focusing seems much more reliable with the 135 and the camera has been totally incident free. Maybe the smaller dealers just try harder as they value loyal customers more and therefore get the repeat business. Anyway good luck with the delay. Alain Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted November 25, 2009 Share #35 Posted November 25, 2009 Andalus So, what happened to the one you said you had on order with David Farkas, only 5 days ago? I assume that you want two M9s, which is why you paid $7000 to B&H and also ordered one from David. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/106704-m9-coming-soon-does-anyone-use.html#post1127047 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted November 25, 2009 Share #36 Posted November 25, 2009 Yes, hollering at some poor slob at the other end of the line will do wonders:confused:. If I were him I'd be sure to bump your name to the BOTTOM of the list. What are you supposed to do - say "thank you very much" and send him a Christmas card. If you are receiving poor, ignorant service when you have paid big bucks and $7k is big bucks, you are fully entitled to let the other person know, in no uncertain terms, that you don't approve. You must then follow it up with a letter to his boss setting out the facts. I accept that it is appropriate to take a substantial non-refundable deposit to ensure that the buyer is serious. I paid £500 at the beginning of August, only refundable if a non full frame M8-3 came out rather than an M9. I think taking the full amount, when no delivery date can be given, smacks of very sharp practice. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted November 25, 2009 Share #37 Posted November 25, 2009 I think taking the full amount, when no delivery date can be given, smacks of very sharp practice. Wilson Maybe so, but if you know this to be the case when you order, then you know it. There are lots of other dealers out there who don't demand 100% deposits... David Farkas is one of them, which is why this thread has me very confused. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan States Posted November 25, 2009 Share #38 Posted November 25, 2009 What are you supposed to do - say "thank you very much" and send him a Christmas card. If you are receiving poor, ignorant service when you have paid big bucks and $7k is big bucks, you are fully entitled to let the other person know, in no uncertain terms, that you don't approve. You must then follow it up with a letter to his boss setting out the facts. I accept that it is appropriate to take a substantial non-refundable deposit to ensure that the buyer is serious. I paid £500 at the beginning of August, only refundable if a non full frame M8-3 came out rather than an M9. I think taking the full amount, when no delivery date can be given, smacks of very sharp practice. Wilson 1. Sending $7000 to someone who does not make immediate delivery is a bad idea. 2. Voting with your money is more effective than complaining. Get a refund and go elsewhere. It's just a camera. 3. Bragging on a forum that you verbally slapped someone at a camera store does nothing. You still don't have a camera in your hands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 25, 2009 Share #39 Posted November 25, 2009 It raises the question why to pay up front for an article that is not in stock? "Yes Sir, we will have your Testarossa for you in about three to four years. Yes, sign here, and if you would kindly put 500.000 $ in small bills into this drawer for us, thank you...":rolleyes: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted November 25, 2009 Share #40 Posted November 25, 2009 It raises the question why to pay up front for an article that is not in stock? "Yes Sir, we will have your Testarossa for you in about three to four years. Yes, sign here, and if you would kindly put 500.000 $ in small bills into this drawer for us, thank you...":rolleyes: Some European Ferrari dealers are asking for just that for a 458 Italia order unless you have previously bought a Ferrari from them. I'll have two in that case then ;-}} Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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