Do you get better pictures from your M9 than you did from your M8?

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I am an M8 user and find myself, for perhaps the first time in my life!, trying to convince myself that I don't need to upgrade!

 

Do any of you who have upgraded from an M8 to an M9 honestly believe that you will produce better photographs with an M9 than you did with your M8?

 

Even better, have you already seen that you are producing better pictures?

 

Perhaps if you could show the best image taken with your new M9 against the best picture with an M8 that would be an interesting starter for discussion - what does everyone else think?

 

Cheers

 

Daniel

 

PS. I am thinking that £4,850 buys a lot of photo opportunities if you already own an M8.....

[MikeMyers]

It might be better to ask "What kind of photos can either the M8 or M9 take, that the other camera can not?"

[adan]

Let's see.

 

Have I gotten a demonstrably better picture yet out of four weeks, 1850 exposures, and a half-dozen or so good shooting opportunities with the M9 than I did over three years, 36,000 exposures, and 150 or so good shooting opportunities with two M8s?

 

No.

 

Ask me again once the M9 has had a full innings.

 

I can say I am shooting in light requiring ISO 2000 and f/1.4 - something I never even bothered to attempt with the M8 after the first few trials.

 

I can say I am getting shots with the full FoV and DoF effects (or lack thereof) of a 35 f/1.4 and a 21 f/2.8 - something no available lens would give with the M8.

 

I can say I can shoot jpegs for deadline photojournalism with a reasonable expectation of good tones and sharpness.

 

Bride in boat - 35 'lux pre-ASPH - ISO 400 DNG

Bride & groom with guests - 35 'lux pre - ISO 2000 DNG

Cop on Broadway - 35 'lux pre - ISO 400 (B&W jpeg original)

Korean Day Parade NYC - 21 pre-ASPH - ISO 500 (B&W jpeg original) - it is SO cool getting my Mandler 21 f/2.8 back in all its glory!

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[tjphoto]

I have M8, M7 and a lot of lenses. 16-18-21, 21 2.8, 24 2.8, 35 1.4, 50 1.4, 501.0, 75 1.4.

And, a CV 12mm whtch is really fun!

I have a M9 at my local dealer waiting for me. They called last friday and said it was here.

I haven't gone to pick it up. I just haven't seen anything that has amazed me with the M9.

I have full frame with M7 and it's just a wonderful camera.

The M8 is really seeming like a bargain.

Tim

Tim Jones Photography

[adan]

I'll add two points:

 

1) In an A3/Super A3 print, all other things being equal, the M9 won't show much improvement over the M8 in plain old IQ, except that for a given ISO the noise speckles are slightly smaller and less obvious (viz Sean Reid's review). The extra Mpixels really don't show otherwise.

 

The kicker is that things usually aren't equal - there is simply no lens one can put on an M8 that reproduces the exact look of, for example, a 35 f/1.4 wide-open on an M9 or a film M. You either get a "47mm", or you get vastly more DoF, and different drawing, with a Solms 24 f/1.4 or 28 f/2 compared to a Mandler 35 f/1.4.

 

2) For me, what constitutes a "better" picture depends a lot on what takes place in front of the lens, not behind it. My M8s have been to Mexico, the Caribbean, the Democratic National Convention, 14,000-ft mountain peaks, and 3 feet away from Robert Redford's photogenic face and Michael Moore's Detroit Tigers cap. And handled them well, on the whole.

 

My M9 just has not yet had the same breadth of opportunities.

[wilfredo]

Can someone explain that magenta cast on white skin? I'm not trying to be a party pooper but I keep seeing this in M9 photos.

[tjphoto]

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The skin tones i have seen so far all look "blotchy" and red.

Very much like canon G9. But, i'm sure it's just the processing.

Man, i really want this camera to be great. So far, i haven't seen it.

Please someone post something nice! With people in it.

Tim

[adan]

RE Pink skin: Well, which skin? The bearded wedding guest was sunburned and very red in real life.

 

Likely because until all the DNG developers get an M9 update, we're dependent on the "embedded" profile (with some room for tweakage). Also, I have not yet created a separate profile in ACR for tungsten light - white-balancing for tungsten will always push reds to pink (because of the added blue tint) unless a separate profile is created for tungsten use to change the red hue/saturation settings.

 

The M8 had exactly the same problem (magnified by the IR issue) in its early months until good profiles had been created.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/33986-m8-adobe-lightroom-profiles.html

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/42586-m8-red-color-rendition-lightroom-wrong.html

 

Nice thing about RAW, though, is that once profiles are created, the pix can be "redeveloped"

 

It could, of course, also just be my taste in processing. "White" skin is mango-smoothy in color unless the subject is 2 days dead, IMHO. Hey, I LIKED Velvia skin tones!!

[jaapv]

To the OP - Yes- but only when I have a better day - when I have a worse day my images are worse.

Having said that I am very happy with the way the M9 works for me - and a happy photographer takes the best images.

[Fotomiguel]

Do any of you who have upgraded from an M8 to an M9 honestly believe that you will produce better photographs with an M9 than you did with your M8?

If you have the old M8 and you get the M9 you may improve (because of the quieter shutter, the better iso and the new "soft mode" funtion) your photography in low light conditions.

If you have bought your lenses thinking in x1.33 crop of M8 your lenses now will be different, so you may change some of your lenses to get better pictures ( I'm just changing the 15mm CV for the new Leica super elmar 18mm ). But normally your lenses will be much better in the M9.

If you don't care to crop your pictures a lot, you will have much more to crop.

 

But if you have a look and compare the Masters M9 shots and the Masters M8 shots from the LFI galleries, the M8 is clearly the winner. The M9 needs some more time...

[luigi bertolotti]

....

and a happy photographer takes the best images.

 

Great truth... I almost never go beyond A3 prints... I'm rather convinced that I won't gain an appreciable IQ for my needs and limits switching to M9: but am in the mood that doing so I'll enjoy again "using 21 as a 21, and 50 as a 50 etc..." and after 30 years of 24x36 (for 80% of my pics... 6x6 and 6x9 were "collaterals") this will make me happier; so, only a matter of timing on decision...

[erl]

The old story of "better tools, will they make me a better crafstman?" Maybe, but probably not! The answer to improving your craft lies squarely with YOU. No escaping the truth.

 

OTOH, a keen craftsman will enjoy better tools and rejoice in the application of them. This just may lead to marginally better pictures, but great strides in your improvement will come only from you. So, will the M9 improve anything? Certainly it will improve your enjoyment and it may influence your images in a positive manner. So the only question is what will be the sum of improvement? Only one way to find out. Get one and see.

[noah_addis]

My M9 is to arrive on Monday. But I don't expect to make better photographs with it.

 

I do know that I can go back to my normal lens set. Instead of resorting to huge and expensive lenses like the 24 'lux, I can go back to my 28/2, 35/1.4, and yes, for special circumstances I can use my 21 ASPH and it will actually be wide.

 

I also know that I won't have to upres the M8 files for my agency anymore. I need 50MB files, and while I never had complaints from the M8 files, it was a pain to have a double workflow since I prefer my own archive to hold non-interpolated files.

 

I do expect for my photographs to have better technical quality. I've started to print my work up to 16x24in, and while the M8 files look very good at that size, I expect the M9 files to look better. Some prints from my brief test of the M9 confirms that. And at any print size, the performance at high ISO seems better.

 

If you're happy with your M8, spend the cash to go on a trip, maybe buy a new lens or (here's a wacky idea), save it for a while. Keep in mind depending on your lens kit you may need a new lens or two to really take advantage of the full-frame camera. You may also need to buy a new printer or spend more on all of those large prints from the lab.

 

At the very least ask yourself a few questions--how big do I print? Do I really need slightly better high-iso performance? Am I happy with my lens kit on the crop sensor? Will my clients be happier with larger files?

 

I feel the same way about the M9 as I do about other very expensive pieces of kit. If you need one, you KNOW you need it and you know the reasons why. If you have to ask, you can probably do just fine without it.

 

The M8 is still a great camera. The tests seem to point to the fact that the M9 is just an M8 with a larger sensor. Personally, that's what I was hoping for. But it won't magically make your photographs better, at least not in content and composition, which are much more important than technical quality.

[wlaidlaw]

Can someone explain that magenta cast on white skin? I'm not trying to be a party pooper but I keep seeing this in M9 photos.

 

6 glasses of champagne?

 

Wilson

[Jager]

I'll add two points:

 

The kicker is that things usually aren't equal - there is simply no lens one can put on an M8 that reproduces the exact look of, for example, a 35 f/1.4 wide-open on an M9 or a film M. You either get a "47mm", or you get vastly more DoF, and different drawing, with a Solms 24 f/1.4 or 28 f/2 compared to a Mandler 35 f/1.4.

 

 

 

That there is the real issue for many of us. I, for instance, never used my Noctilux on my M8 very much because that lens lost much of its original signature when cropped. Similarly, my once can't-do-without-it 35 Lux ASPH on my film M's saw little service on the M8. The FOV just didn't have the same "rightness".

 

The M9 will bring us back to those ageless lens "looks" that the designers had in mind.

 

Whether that then translates into good photography is a separate question. The M8 is every bit as capable in that regard as the M9. It's just that the tool set will work a bit differently with the two cameras.

[Mokkacream]

The skin tones i have seen so far all look "blotchy" and red.

Please someone post something nice! With people in it.

Tim

 

Maybe this one:

 

[ATTACH]167842[/ATTACH]

 

Leica M9, 50 lux f/1.4, ISO 160, Auto WB, ALR 2.5, Chromasoft M9 profile, left untouched.

[adan]

Wilson - well, perhaps that too! I just wasn't going to mention it.

 

(Seriously, Adobe makes both my 2-year-old edition of ACR, and LightRoom, packaged with the M9, and Adobe seems to do pinkish reds...QED)

[Guest EarlBurrellPhoto]

I have a M9 at my local dealer waiting for me. They called last friday and said it was here.

I haven't gone to pick it up. I just haven't seen anything that has amazed me with the M9.

 

+1. I think some of it comes down to the fact that right now the optimal workflow hasn't been fleshed out. By the time we have the optimal profiles and workflow, I expect the early-adopters will have sorted all the bugs, and perhaps Leica will even have offered some essentials that so far are not: firmware to use the M9 with IR filters when needed, sapphire LCD glass, perhaps an option of 2m framelines, perhaps even a top-plate display for battery and card capacities. If there isn't an M9.2, literal or de-facto through upgrade, then by that time there will at least be some keenly-priced second-hand/demonstrator M9s. Good things come to those who wait.

[positivibes]

My M9 is to arrive on Monday. But I don't expect to make better photographs with it.

 

I do know that I can go back to my normal lens set. Instead of resorting to huge and expensive lenses like the 24 'lux, I can go back to my 28/2, 35/1.4, and yes, for special circumstances I can use my 21 ASPH and it will actually be wide.

 

I also know that I won't have to upres the M8 files for my agency anymore. I need 50MB files, and while I never had complaints from the M8 files, it was a pain to have a double workflow since I prefer my own archive to hold non-interpolated files.

 

I do expect for my photographs to have better technical quality. I've started to print my work up to 16x24in, and while the M8 files look very good at that size, I expect the M9 files to look better. Some prints from my brief test of the M9 confirms that. And at any print size, the performance at high ISO seems better.

 

If you're happy with your M8, spend the cash to go on a trip, maybe buy a new lens or (here's a wacky idea), save it for a while. Keep in mind depending on your lens kit you may need a new lens or two to really take advantage of the full-frame camera. You may also need to buy a new printer or spend more on all of those large prints from the lab.

 

At the very least ask yourself a few questions--how big do I print? Do I really need slightly better high-iso performance? Am I happy with my lens kit on the crop sensor? Will my clients be happier with larger files?

 

I feel the same way about the M9 as I do about other very expensive pieces of kit. If you need one, you KNOW you need it and you know the reasons why. If you have to ask, you can probably do just fine without it.

 

The M8 is still a great camera. The tests seem to point to the fact that the M9 is just an M8 with a larger sensor. Personally, that's what I was hoping for. But it won't magically make your photographs better, at least not in content and composition, which are much more important than technical quality.

 

really nice comment. i agree with you in every point. and also it makes me want to buy the M9 even more. i never changed my lens set to the 1.3 M8 sensor, therfore i was never really happy with my lenses on the M8. but i didn't want to spend a lot of money for new lenses, so i kept working with the lenses i loved so much on film. but they always lost a bit of their magic on the M8 crop. So finally, it was worth the wait, fullframe arrived!

 

and the 18 MPX will give you much more freedom in zooming in or scaling up. basicly 10 MPX is enough for must uses. but now you can cut the picture by 1.3 and still get a 10 MPX picture. do that with one frome the M8 and you will end up around 7 MPX.

 

i don't belive the M9 will take better shots, but at list it will keep me from buying or renting medium format for a while. in my view, the M9 will be the first 35mm camera thats getting close to the look of a hassi or mamiya.

 

so as soon as i can get the money, will run for it and keep my M8 as a backup.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[graeme_hutton]

......or put this way (which is how I feel)...

 

"I am an M8 user and find myself, for perhaps the first time in my life!, not having to convince myself that I need to upgrade!"

 

Best

 

Graeme

 

PS Say 'hello' to Blair!