Announcement Published on Leica Website

[gman]

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For example, as far as I know, they are still not coding lenses in the U.S., although coding is now more-or-less mandatory.

JC

 

Leica in NJ has been coding lenses since the beginning of the month- I just got back a few lenses I sent them. Turn-around time was between 2-3 weeks. Not too bad. I sent them myself directly to Leica, so if you bring them to a dealer you would probably add on another week or so.

 

jeff

[sean_reid]

Rhymes with "mass fraction," if that helps. It's a type of lawsuit. Personally, I think it's a ridiculous suggestion that it either would or should happen.

 

I can't begin to express how emphatically I agree with that.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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[rick_dykstra]

Or you can also just say the hell with it and jump from one of these.

 

Now a tower like that would be handy for some of my bird photography. I've been looking at the hunting towers Cabelas and Bass Pro have, but this one of yours Guy is much better.

 

And as you've hinted, I could let all of the M8 grumble bums climb up with me, take a look at the beautiful world they're not photographing and opt for the quick way down.

[chetccox]

And, you can get a room for $5.00!

[bill]

Can someone please take a moment to explain to me what the hell is so naughty about writing the words "Class Action" out in full? This form of arch coyness is merely irritating, not to mention how abhorrent it is as an idea.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[rick_dykstra]

It could be that the fella who mentioned the idea in this thread was tuned in to the notion that it would be incredibly rude to proceed with such a discussion on a site hosted by the manufacturer who would be the unfortunate target of such an ill advised venture. It'd be like visiting an acquaintance's home, enjoying the wine and nibbles generously provided by the host and then starting a conversation about how ugly his wife is. Good one!

[bill]

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Rick, I agree with you; so why bring it up in the first place? Daft, ambulance-chasing concept.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[rob_x2004]

Proletariat cannot enagage in Class action William. What on Earth are you thinking.

 

Lord R

[sean_reid]

Hi Guy,

 

I believe it was Sean who said that at low ISO this camera can be compared to a medium format. No kidding! And this is from web sized pictures. I'm impressed.

 

Rgds,

 

Etienne

 

Yes, comparable to medium format film scans - absolutely. Will be adding an interesting section to Part 4 soon with David Adamson's comments and comparison pics (4 x 5 scan and M8).

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

"To put the filter in the camera requires cyan corner correction for all wide angle lenses. My personal feeling is 24mm or wider, but Leica is saying 35mm or wider, so they must really be fussy about it."

 

Actually, they're right on with that. I did the tests today and the cyan drift can be seen even with 35 mm lenses. So, 35 and below is the correct range.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Sean thanks for testing the 35mm have not seen it yet but just could be subject matter hiding it. The 28mm it is obvious. Hope you had a good T day

[mwilliamsphotography]

Yes, comparable to medium format film scans - absolutely. Will be adding an interesting section to Part 4 soon with David Adamson's comments and comparison pics (4 x 5 scan and M8).

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Apples to Oranges ... so any comparison has to biased to whatever point someone wants it to be ... and I don't care who is doing the comparison, or their credentials. It's still Apples to Oranges.

 

While the internet is no place to exhibit anything, and the web size requirements limit any evaluation, here is a scan from a 6X6 Tri-X neg, that I printed to 36" X 36". I can't get this look from my Imacon 39 meg MF digital back, or the 33 meg Aptus ... both of which blow away the M8.

 

Love the M8, but there are other criteria for look and feel that other media provide better.

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[c6gowin]

I just got back online and saw the Leica announcement. Not that anyone else cares, but I am not happy about the announcement. More than anything, I take it as an insult. Let's look at what their announcement says.

 

All customers having received their LEICA M8 before this delivery date will be offered an upgrade free of charge in Leica Camera AG's Customer Service in Solms.

 

"Upgrade". Are you kidding, don't you really mean "warranty repair".

 

Please note that even without this upgrade all cameras delivered before this date are in working order and can be used normally.

 

This is anoher insult. We all know there are way too many conditions where the M8 does not work properly and cannot be used normally (at best, one must resort to work arounds such as filters). I will admit though, in those conditions where it works, it works extremely well.

 

 

Above-average sensitivity for infrared light (synthetic fabrics are rendered with a slight magenta offset)

During the development of the LEICA M8, we made important design choices to insure that the camera delivers the quality in images the Leica M System is known for. Keeping the protective glass cover on the sensor as thin as possible on the one hand has the benefit of allowing the full potential of Leica lenses on the LEICA M8 to be utilized with respect to their sharpness and contrast rendition, but it also absorbs less of the infrared light. In everyday photographical use the resulting above-average sensitivity for infrared light may lead to a faulty color rendition, especially in the case of synthetic fabrics which - depending on the ambient light - cannot be rendered fully black but only with a slight magenta offset.

 

Based on their own words above, Leica made a "design choice" which "in everday use the resulting above-average sensitivity for infrared light may lead to a faulty color rendition". I don't recall seeing a statement to this effect in their advertising materials for the M8. In addition, I don't recall seeing a statement in Leica's marketing material which informs potential buyers that the M8 cannot accurately reproduce colors without the use of an additional filter on each lens. Further, the Leica marketing material didn't state that lenses 35mm and wider must be Leica and 6-bit coded in order for the M8 to accurately reproduce colors.

 

It is now official - I am a chump. Leica's handling of these problems has made me feel like a fool for believing they would take care of me as an early adopter. I do not feel like their proposed solutions are acceptable and I don't know what to do about it. I love the camera and fully expected Leica to make it right. However, adding filters to lenses and requiring 6-bit coded lenses 35mm and wider is not correcting the camera - it is a work around for a poor camera design "choice". I don't know of any other modern digital camera manufacturer who stakes its reputation on telling it's customers that they must use filters on their lenses and they must use their brand of lens in order for their $5,000 camera to work properly. Also, I bet the next version of the M8 (M9 or whatever it will be called) won't require filters on lenses. Leica has left me a bit sour, and it is embarassing I spent so much money to get this crappy feeling. It would be a lot easier to decide whether to cut my losses and run if I didn't like the darn camera so much.

 

And to address another post earlier which equated the the M8 return to Solms to a car manufacturer repairing a car. The assumption in that post was that a car manufacturer does not replace a faulty car with a new one. That is not true - they do it on a regular basis. I have had a car manufacturer replace a car that was faulty. They did it without litigation or arbitration. They did it because it was the right thing to do and they cared about their reputation.

[marknorton]

Everyone has the choice at this point of keeping their camera or returning it. I am quite sure that Leica would much rather approve a refund than have unhappy customers who come out which this sort of stuff.

 

Leica have worked wonders bringing this camera to market. True, there' a bug, a bug they are fixing it in a responsible and timely way and, if you don't like the filters, it sounds like you'd like the loss of picture quality even less. Sadly, the laws of physics are against us. Right now, we cannot have it all.

 

Each of us with an M8 needs to decide whether we're on board - keeping the camera, going for the fix n' filters, or else returning the camera and moaning from the sidelines. Me? I'm keeping my camera and buying a second.

 

And just in case anyone thinks the Japanese majors never get it wrong:

 

BBC NEWS | Business | Sony recalls cameras over glitch

[Riley]

 

And to address another post earlier which equated the the M8 return to Solms to a car manufacturer repairing a car. The assumption in that post was that a car manufacturer does not replace a faulty car with a new one. That is not true - they do it on a regular basis. I have had a car manufacturer replace a car that was faulty. They did it without litigation or arbitration. They did it because it was the right thing to do and they cared about their reputation.

 

while it happens for the so called 'lemon' cars

well thats not how business is conducted for a vehicle recall is it

now maybe i live like a mushroom but i never heard of it, so show me an example where 1500 cars are exchanged for new

 

Riley

 

Edit to add: if you truly believe the M8 is worthless, I'll be happy to take it off your hands as my christmas gift

[sean_reid]

Sean thanks for testing the 35mm have not seen it yet but just could be subject matter hiding it. The 28mm it is obvious. Hope you had a good T day

 

Hi Guy,

 

Yes, unfortunately it is still there in the 35s, although it's mild. I did a torture test (outdoors, daylight shade, early winter, white wall) so the examples in the article should show worst case scenarios. Based on what I'm seeing though, I'd want the correction when working with a 35. I had a wonderful T-giving, thank you - we hosted the family at our place. Hope your day was great too.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[carlos diaz]

Hi Guy,

 

Yes, unfortunately it is still there in the 35s, although it's mild. I did a torture test (outdoors, daylight shade, early winter, white wall) so the examples in the article should show worst case scenarios. Based on what I'm seeing though, I'd want the correction when working with a 35. I had a wonderful T-giving, thank you - we hosted the family at our place. Hope your day was great too.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

Although I am very new to the forum, I have already spent many hours reading (just ask my wife). In any case, I feel compelled to say that there are some words/posts much more helpful than others and that I truly appreciate the input of both Sean and Guy for keeping the discussion relevant

[sdai]

... here is a scan from a 6X6 Tri-X neg, that I printed to 36" X 36". I can't get this look from my Imacon 39 meg MF digital back, or the 33 meg Aptus ... both of which blow away the M8.

 

Love the M8, but there are other criteria for look and feel that other media provide better.

 

I find it extremely interesting that you did mention this, Marc ... coincidently, the December issue of Asahi Camera did some head to head comparisons between the M7 (loaded with RDP) and the M8.

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[Guest stevenrk]

Everyone has the choice at this point of keeping their camera or returning it...

Each of us with an M8 needs to decide whether we're on board - keeping the camera, going for the fix n' filters, or else returning the camera and moaning from the sidelines. Me? I'm keeping my camera and buying a second.

 

Mark, surprised at your tone. You are right that it is for each of us to make the choice. But to suggest that people who disagree with your assessment are "moaning from the sidelines" does a disservice to everyone. I returned two M8s, the second without even opening the packing carton. The work I had planned around the qualities of the M -- unobtrusiveness (simply have decided that the 486 filters diminish this in a significant way, and appreciate that there are people who's opinions I have great respect for who disagree with this view) and high digital quality (delivered) and Leica color (not close), I've now moved forward on the project with my Canons. Decision made. For those who find the solution presented by Leica one that works for them, I'm pleased for them and imagine the two Ms I returned are in their hands.

 

I genuinely believe though when Leica has finished satisfying this market segment, they are going to have a difficult time with the M8. I just don't think in this day and age you can expect to sell enough of a $5000 camera that doesn't get color right. And it's not something that will find a complete solution in profiles -- if profiles were the answer to all color issues, there would be much less separating the various makes and cameras out there -- in DSLR and MF (simplistic expression, but hope you understand the point). And we also know from Sean Read's test shots in Part 4 of his review that even with the IR filter the Leica is still skewing the color palet -- not just blacks. I hope for those who are working with the camera that C1 fixes it all, but I have come to the conclusion that this is more wishful thinking for a wonderful camera with some deep, damaging flaws -- not just "bugs."

 

Understand and respect your choosing to disagree and enjoy the camera. Certainly there are many examples on some other threads of images with a subtlety of expression, tone and rendition of detail and light that are impressive -- especially with BW (and nearly kept one to work with BW, as the IR seems to actually do interesting things with BW -- see again Sean's part 4). Don't have any desire to use, or consider it appropriate to use, any disparaging terms to describe your support for the M in its now final form. I'd appreciate it, though, if you would pay the same courtesy to those of us who happen to believe that the current M is going to do some real harm to the chance of RF breaking through in a way that would have led to a real awakening of this important means of communicating with our subjects in the digital age. That failure -- my view -- is one that I hold Leica responsible for, regret occured, and saddens me. A discount on a lens or a free filter or two or dozen would not change my view on that or make me reconsider my decision for a second. I frankly could not have cared less about the free anything, and would have been happy to pay more for an M that got all the basics right.

 

Is that a whine? I'd call it more an expression of a sense of real loss. That has just as much a place on these forums as expressions of support and enjoyment of the camera (I've posted some of those expressions and images as well).

 

Bottom line for me is that there were decision points that were poorly navigated by Leica and as a result rather than produce a great RF in the tradition of an M, we've ended up with a specialty camera for a certain segment of enthusiast. Again, one view point. Fully understand and respect those who disagree.

 

Looking at the car analogy, a Morgan is a great car. If you haven't driven one at the North side of a 100 as the pavement is flying by at a few inches from your seat, you've missed something in life. But I didn't want Leica to produce a Morgan, I was expecting a Carrera GT, and I think we got a Morgan. A well built Morgan, but a Morgan.

 

As to which view is correct, the sales figures 6 months out will tell the story. For those who own the camera and it's producing great images for you, that's splendid. I've enjoyed driving a Morgan, but never wanted to own one, but I certainly admire those who've chosen to.

 

Steven

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[rick_dykstra]

Hello Mark. It's late and I'll admit to having read your post rather quickly. I got the drift though. But here's a thought. Since you are one of the early adopters and so many of us here are keen to see what this new invention can do, how about jumping into your car, looking for something with interesting texture and light and taking a series of shots, so you can post them here. I (for one) can't get enough of these shots. Post them with decent clarity, or tell us where we can see them. Or let me put them up.

 

It's just an idea. We'll certainly learn something.

 

I'll check in the morning - and hope to see something interesting.

 

Regards, Rick.