chuck3819 Posted September 29, 2009 Share #1 Posted September 29, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello all, I am an art/documentary photographer who uses a Nikon D40 with an 18-55mm lens (try not to laugh!, it was all I could afford at the time when I was getting back into photography. Also I was unsure of how it would go since I had not seriously taken photographs for quite some time....) Unfortunately I'm still the starving artist, but eventually I want to upgrade to a better camera. I work in a camera store and we do a small Leica business, but we mainly sell Canon and Nikon. The problem is that when I pick up a 5D Mark II or a D700 and/or anything in between, they do nothing for me. I know that they are capable of making wonderfully sharp images, I just do not feel connected to the camera the way I did when I was young and I used my Canonet, Olympus Pen-F and XA. Does anyone know what I mean? I only feel that way when I pick up a Leica. Since there isn't even a snowballs chance in hell I could afford a new M9 or M8.2, I thought I might wait a bit for the price on used M8's to get lower, and then maybe pick up a used 35mm Summarit as well. I wanted to find out from you all how this camera performs in prints up to 20X24 at 400 and/or 640 ISO's. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Here is a sample of a project I completed last year if you want to look at my work, Chuck Shacochis Thanks a lot for your help, Chuck Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 Hi chuck3819, Take a look here Advice for a broke-ass Leica wanna-be.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
shootinglulu Posted September 29, 2009 Share #2 Posted September 29, 2009 Looking at your work, beautiful, i think you'll really enjoy the M8. Find a way to buy it. Sorry i can't answer your question. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted September 29, 2009 Share #3 Posted September 29, 2009 I am using an M8, Printing on a Canon 9500 which is a 13X19 printer, and thus far I am getting Gallery quality prints all the way up and down the ISO scale. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/98517-advice-for-a-broke-ass-leica-wanna-be/?do=findComment&comment=1055101'>More sharing options...
Shootist Posted September 29, 2009 Share #4 Posted September 29, 2009 First off the M8/M8.2 and M9 are all 3/2 format/ratio cameras. That means that if one edge/side of the image is 3 units long the other edge/side is 2 units long. So using that formula a print using that ratio would need to be 24x16 (3 8's wide by 2 8's tall or the other way around) to use the whole image you captured. Yes you can print any image at any ratio you choose but you will need to crop the image to that ratio either before printing or at the time of the printing. There have been images from a M8 printed at 40+ x X that are very good but these image were process by PRO Print makers, people, that knows exactly what they are doing and printed on top of the line Professional printers. I myself am a amateur but I use a very good printer, HP B 9180, along with what is considered a very good if not the best dedicated printing program, Qimage, and get stellar prints up to 12x18 in on 13x19 in paper (I don't like printing borderless and the 13x19 is not a 3/2 format). That is as big of paper my printer can handle. I see not reason why if I have a larger format printer I could not produce equaly good prints at 24x16, 27x18 or even larger from M8 images. One thing you must remember is as the prints get larger the proper viewing distance get longer, farther away from the print. If you are looking to do 24x16 or larger prints and then stand right next to them, hold them at arms length, then you may need a medium format camera. So yes the M8 images will print that size without problems if you do your part in capturing and processing the image correctly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
matts Posted September 29, 2009 Share #5 Posted September 29, 2009 Your only real option is to wait - but I don't see M8 prices dropping down way too much. The M9 hype is more or less over, and the people who are going to order one who have the means to have already done so and are shedding their M8s and M8.2s. Perhaps you can look into one of the micro 4/3 cameras, such as the new Panasonics. They can easily be adapted to take M lenses, which means that if you get yourself a nice little collection of lenses (Voigtlander makes some great value lenses - easily compares to Canon L and Nikon premium glass, matching if not exceeding in performance for a fraction of the price) you can use them on your Leica Mx someday. Zeiss also makes incredible glass for relatively low prices. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
footnoteblog Posted September 29, 2009 Share #6 Posted September 29, 2009 You're going to need to budget about US$3000-5000 for entry level Leica DRF, unfortunately. Bodies are going for around $4K, and you'll want to get decent lenses like an ultra wide, wide, and a normal (where the M platform really shines); Cosina Voigtlanders are a bargain, as are some Zeiss, and then Leica (really the king of glass, practically in all categories). You can also hunt for used lenses to get your kit started. As well, the Epson RD-1 can be had (albeit with a "worse" field of view of 1.5x). That'll give you a sense of which organ to sell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookedart Posted September 29, 2009 Share #7 Posted September 29, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello all,I am an art/documentary photographer who uses a Nikon D40 with an 18-55mm lens (try not to laugh!, it was all I could afford at the time when I was getting back into photography. Also I was unsure of how it would go since I had not seriously taken photographs for quite some time....) Unfortunately I'm still the starving artist, but eventually I want to upgrade to a better camera. I work in a camera store and we do a small Leica business, but we mainly sell Canon and Nikon. The problem is that when I pick up a 5D Mark II or a D700 and/or anything in between, they do nothing for me. I know that they are capable of making wonderfully sharp images, I just do not feel connected to the camera the way I did when I was young and I used my Canonet, Olympus Pen-F and XA. Does anyone know what I mean? I only feel that way when I pick up a Leica. Since there isn't even a snowballs chance in hell I could afford a new M9 or M8.2, I thought I might wait a bit for the price on used M8's to get lower, and then maybe pick up a used 35mm Summarit as well. I wanted to find out from you all how this camera performs in prints up to 20X24 at 400 and/or 640 ISO's. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Here is a sample of a project I completed last year if you want to look at my work, Chuck Shacochis Thanks a lot for your help, Chuck I think this link is a good barometer of file size quality vs print size: How Big Can I Print by Thom Hogan With the M8 being a 10 megapixel camera, printing up to past 13x19 starts to get a little hairy, especially if you're looking to look fairly close at the images. If you're worried about cost, definitely grab a used m8 and some voigtlander glass. You might also want to think about grabbing a film camera instead - used M6's go for much cheaper. As for ISO, i have found the camera to perform very well at ISO 640... several people on the net have noted this rating is around a 2/3 stop more sensitive than reported as well, so the images look more like ISO 800 to me. I definitely think that ISO 640 images are fully printable up to the image size limits of the 10 megapixel sensor. ISO 1250 starts to get really hairy, especially in low light or if you underexpose. I hope this helps! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookedart Posted September 29, 2009 Share #8 Posted September 29, 2009 You're going to need to budget about US$3000-5000 for entry level Leica DRF, unfortunately. Bodies are going for around $4K, and you'll want to get decent lenses like an ultra wide, wide, and a normal (where the M platform really shines); Cosina Voigtlanders are a bargain, as are some Zeiss, and then Leica (really the king of glass, practically in all categories). You can also hunt for used lenses to get your kit started. As well, the Epson RD-1 can be had (albeit with a "worse" field of view of 1.5x). That'll give you a sense of which organ to sell. You can get used M8 bodies for around $2500.. m8.2 bodies go for $3000+. The epson RD-1 is a good choice too, if you are willing to succumb to a 6 MP limit, and by the sounds of you asking about prints, this may not be an option. Perhaps you can look into one of the micro 4/3 cameras, such as the new Panasonics. . This a cheaper way to go as well, but I'm not convinced manually focusing with any body but perhaps the GH1 would be easy to do, especially outdoors. I've never tried the GH1 myself either, but this looks like the only one with a large and high enough quality viewfinder to start thinking about manually focusing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted October 1, 2009 Share #9 Posted October 1, 2009 Working in the camera retail trade, do you have access to some M8 DNG files? You could work on these and then print at the required size. Even if you dont have a large format printer you could print a 10x8 section to see how it looks. My standard printing size is 13x19 (A3+) for M8 files, they are uprezzed slightly in PS and look fine to me and others. I have uprezzed to A2 size, on screen they look fine but I have yet to print one. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsrockit Posted October 1, 2009 Share #10 Posted October 1, 2009 Leica X1? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danyves Posted October 1, 2009 Share #11 Posted October 1, 2009 Leica X1 ? Not that so cheap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
footnoteblog Posted October 1, 2009 Share #12 Posted October 1, 2009 A lot of people disagree. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/9022-30-x-40-inch-m8-prints.html I think this link is a good barometer of file size quality vs print size: How Big Can I Print by Thom Hogan With the M8 being a 10 megapixel camera, printing up to past 13x19 starts to get a little hairy, especially if you're looking to look fairly close at the images. …snipped I hope this helps! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted October 1, 2009 Share #13 Posted October 1, 2009 I find printing 13X19 or larger depends as much on the Paper and Printer as the image it's self. Even at 13X19 certain paper (Epson/Canon matt) looses details over others (Ilford glossy). I find under the best printer/paper combinations, lots of room for very large photos (even larger than 20X24). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tollie Posted October 1, 2009 Share #14 Posted October 1, 2009 Hi Chuck, I checked out your site... you have a good eye. I know what you mean about Leica... but really for me its not only about Leica but about returning to the basics of photography... focus, shutter, aperture, ISO... all planned. Actually the D40 is a great camera... please accept this thought as rooted in photographys basics. What you could use and can afford is a great prime lens. Nikon makes two inexpensive (relative to leica glass) 50mm lenses both less than than $300 the f1.8 which is even cheaper or the f1.4. These are fast lenses and will not auto focus on the D40... you can get very nice oof... the 1.4 is very sharp and the 1.8 is a bit softer. You can set up the d40, as you know, to go manual. So for a couple of hundred you have a nice introduction... while you save your pennies for the M8. Oh... another thought Zeiss makes some great lenses for the Nikon... about twice as expensive as Nikons but great glass. Good luck Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted October 1, 2009 Share #15 Posted October 1, 2009 Have you considered a combination like a used M6, used 35mm Summilux (pre-asph) and a good 35mm scanner? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted October 1, 2009 Share #16 Posted October 1, 2009 Have you considered a combination like a used M6, used 35mm Summilux (pre-asph) and a good 35mm scanner? Or even better [a lot better, and a lot lot cheaper] a 30 year old Plaubel Makina 6x7 [fantastic lens on either model - you might prefer the 65 mm lens], or a 6x7 Fuji, or a Mamiya 6 or Mamiya 7 currently at very low price .............? But I think you probably want digital so the cost of a second hand M8 is your principal outlay, but having seen your pics [really enjoyed No. 30] you can easily live with one lens. So maybe a CV or Zeiss, or even a vintage screw mount Canon can get you started. If you go that route rather than Leica glass [as some of us other starving artists have] come back for advice - you'll get plenty. .................. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilfredo Posted October 1, 2009 Share #17 Posted October 1, 2009 The problem is that when I pick up a 5D Mark II or a D700 and/or anything in between, they do nothing for me. I know that they are capable of making wonderfully sharp images, I just do not feel connected to the camera the way I did when I was young and I used my Canonet, Olympus Pen-F and XA. Does anyone know what I mean? I only feel that way when I pick up a Leica. Chuck Shacochis Thanks a lot for your help, Chuck The first step, and I'm not kidding, is to imagine the camera in your hands, and yours. It will happen! Aside from that, I know what you mean about the feel. Nothing like a camera and lens you can focus yourself. I have a Canon 5D II which I use with manual focus Zeiss and Leica glass. That brings back some of the old feeling. I'm actually enjoying the 5D II a lot more than I ever did the 5D and auto focus L glass. The M9 frenzy has not affected me, I remain happy with the M8. If you really want one, visualize it, don't worry about cost, it will come :-). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
viramati Posted October 1, 2009 Share #18 Posted October 1, 2009 like Wilfredo I use zeiss glass but with a D700. It is a great combination and takes me back to the old feel of a camera. I have never been able to get used to setting the aperture on a wheel on the camera body it just feels so much better to be able to do it on the lens. I also use M8.2 but from the quality of you work it shows that it is the man behind the lens that really makes the picture. I really think that the this idea that you need a rangefinder leica to real get into and relate with the picture/composition is a bit of a fallacy. I personally think I get just as much feel from D700 and Zeiss as I do from Leica and Zeiss but just in a different way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck3819 Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share #19 Posted October 2, 2009 Hello all once again, I just wanted to say thank you very much for all of the advice, and for the kind words about my work - I really appreciate it. You all have given me a lot to think about! I also wanted to say that this thread is a great testament to what I really love about this forum - well-informed and varied opinions from a passionate community of people who share their experiences freely. Oh and if anyone at Leica is reading this and want to donate a refurbished M8 or M8.2 to me, I would be thrilled and humbled to accept it! (I know, I know - very wishful thinking!) Thanks again to all who have responded to my post, Chuck Shacochis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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