ulrikft Posted October 1, 2009 Share #181 Posted October 1, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) *sigh* I am not going to indulge your penchant for subjective debate. I have given you the basis for my assertion at the outset. At no point did I imply that anything was "staggering and impossible" - such hyperbole is hardly appropriate. Let me instead ask the following questions: 1. How much weatherproofing is "enough"? Which Category? 2. How much would the market be willing to pay for a weatherproofed Leica? 3. How many more Leicas could be sold if they were weatherproofed? 4. What type of gaskets should be used? 5. What type of rubber should be used to manufacture the gaskets? 6. How should the gaskets be fitted to the camera? 7. Should the mount be weatherproofed? 8. Should lenses be weatherproofed? 9. If the mount is weatherproofed, how should backward compatibility be maintained with existing lenses? 10. If the mount is weatherproofed how does that impact lens coding? ...and so on. Nothing is "staggering", much less "impossible", but you are really not thinking this through. Regards, Bill It is good to know that you know what I'm thinking, saves me the time to write a longer respons.. Assuming as much as you do here, makes for worse debates than the hyperboles you accuse me of. The reality is though that you make it out to be a huge deal, which I try to make it out to be quite feasible. I also think that a decent percentage of fence-sitters (at least on forums like FM) would jump far easier down on the Leica side if they could trust their camera a wee bit more. Implying that I cannot ask for weather sealing if i can not from the top of my head mention what kind of rubber I would want in those seals... seriously...? did you think that comment trough? I think not.. So, stop assuming, stop comments that imply such things and tell me, straight and simple, how much extra work, compared to say.. removing the top lcd-counter or changing the top plate design.. or changing a button to a iso-button, or a new shutter-relase system, do you think this would involve..? And do you not think that a noticeable amount of people would be far more likely to buy the camera if it were weather sealed? (and as a quick detail, I've yet to see many weather sealed camera _mounts_ it is usually the lens-bayonet that gets weather sealed, and I don't really see a problem with this done as a service on existing lenses, being a part of newer lens designs or being left out for those who don't want it, and again a weather sealed mount/lens is not a pre-requisite for a weather sealed body being useful). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Hi ulrikft, Take a look here M9 – A Giant Leap in the Right Direction – Still Some Distance To Go. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
bill Posted October 1, 2009 Share #182 Posted October 1, 2009 Burble... The reality is though that you make it out to be a huge deal, which I try to make it out to be quite feasible. ...burble. I rest my case. User CP > Edit Ignore List > Add a member to your list > [okay] Simples. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 1, 2009 Share #183 Posted October 1, 2009 I still don't understand how auto WB may have any influence on raws. Am i missing something here? For photographers who shoot color, accurate AWB is a time saver because there will be fewer files needing further adjustment for white balance. Erratic AWB means more files to adjust, whether they're raw or jpeg. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted October 1, 2009 Share #184 Posted October 1, 2009 I know nothing at all about what would be required to weather seal the M body but logic would tell me that Leica would have to be 100% sure it worked - can you imagine to uproar if someones M died because they used it whilst kyaking? I would imagine that they would need to redesign the entire body shell to accommodate the necessary seals and gaskets, without even thinking about the lenses. It seems from what I've read on this forum that the M can quite happily withstand use in bad weather, i.e. out in the rain, snow etc, which is probably adequate for most users. Again its a case of the right tool for the job. If you know your camera is going to get drenched on a regular basis then clearly there are other cameras out there better suited to that task - it's rather like moaning that a Ferrari can't off road very well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted October 1, 2009 Share #185 Posted October 1, 2009 I still don't understand how auto WB may have any influence on raws. Am i missing something here? OK, we're getting off-track with this, but I'll try to explain it better. I shoot in color, mostly weddings. I come home with many, many photos. I use raw and auto white balance. I have to edit those photos and convert them to jpeg for my lab to print. Lightroom will show me the photos with the "as shot" white balance. If the camera has good AWB, then few of those photos will need further white balance adjustment before conversion to jpeg. If the camera has crude and erratic AWB, then I have to adjust the white balance on many more photos before they'll be suitable for printing. Therefore, whether shooting raw or jpeg, good in-camera AWB as a starting point is a timesaver. Shooting in raw means the white balance is easier to adjust as it has not been "baked" into the file as it would be with an in-camera jpeg, but a raw file still comes with an "as shot" white balance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulrikft Posted October 1, 2009 Share #186 Posted October 1, 2009 I rest my case. User CP > Edit Ignore List > Add a member to your list > [okay] Simples. Regards, Bill Haha, go ahead, I point out your fallacies, you ignore me. That is a perfectly fine deal to me tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 1, 2009 Share #187 Posted October 1, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) OK i get it thanks but being confident in auto WB is an experience i don't have so far. May i ask what camera(s) give you such a confidence? OK, we're getting off-track with this, but I'll try to explain it better. I shoot in color, mostly weddings. I come home with many, many photos. I use raw and auto white balance. I have to edit those photos and convert them to jpeg for my lab to print. Lightroom will show me the photos with the "as shot" white balance. If the camera has good AWB, then few of those photos will need further white balance adjustment before conversion to jpeg. If the camera has crude and erratic AWB, then I have to adjust the white balance on many more photos before they'll be suitable for printing. Therefore, whether shooting raw or jpeg, good in-camera AWB as a starting point is a timesaver. Shooting in raw means the white balance is easier to adjust as it has not been "baked" into the file as it would be with an in-camera jpeg, but a raw file still comes with an "as shot" white balance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted October 1, 2009 Share #188 Posted October 1, 2009 Ok, please can I ask Modernbob or Slatkob to present us an outline of whether its feasible to implement a relief valve in camera so one can shoot in deep space and/or absolute void? With the proper spacesuit ofcourse... Because it's a shame Leica has lef this feature out.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernMan Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share #189 Posted October 1, 2009 17) User profiles where features may be unspecified so the profile does not affect the feature settings.Irrelevant for me shooting only DNGs. For clarity, the idea here is to let users define profiles which, say in the case of the Lens Selection->Auto/Manual setting, can be set up to have no affect on the current value of that setting. So, one could then set that profile without changing the currently-selected manual lens setting. Otherwise, if the new profile set the Lens Secletion to Auto, one may have to set it again to Manual and then find the lens in the list (lengthly list -- by necessity) again. Currently, profiles must set every setting to some value. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernMan Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share #190 Posted October 1, 2009 Ok, please can I ask Modernbob or Slatkob to present us an outline of whether its feasible to implement a relief valve in camera so one can shoot in deep space and/or absolute void?With the proper spacesuit ofcourse... Because it's a shame Leica has lef this feature out.. For operation in a vacuum, I suspect a relief valve is unecessary as gas entrapment is not an issue with the M9. In the absense of weathersealing, the current M's will flow air in and out reasonably freely. I'm guessing that the flow rate is sufficent with respect to the overall internal gas volume to present no issues even in the case of sudden depresurization. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted October 1, 2009 Share #191 Posted October 1, 2009 OK i get it thanks but being confident in auto WB is an experience i don't have so far. May i ask what camera(s) give you such a confidence? Currently the Canon 5DII. But really, AWB in any of the recent years' cameras are good enough to get close enough most of the time. The early M8 was the anomaly that would have created post-processing headaches, but Leica straightened that out with firmware. Again, the point is not to highlight a well-known and resolved issue, but to point out how a new feature or improvement is portrayed as being outside the brand philosophy until a few years later when it's formally added or refined, and then everyone accepts it as good and obvious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 1, 2009 Share #192 Posted October 1, 2009 Currently the Canon 5DII. But really, AWB in any of the recent years' cameras are good enough to get close enough most of the time... Hardly the case with my 5D1 i must say so i rarely use the "as shot" WB personally. Matter of tastes and/or workflow i guess but to revert to the topic the fact that some photogs could choose or reject a camera like the M9 for its auto WB quality is simply beyond me. YMMV. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted October 1, 2009 Share #193 Posted October 1, 2009 For operation in a vacuum, I suspect a relief valve is unecessary as gas entrapment is not an issue with the M9. In the absense of weathersealing, the current M's will flow air in and out reasonably freely. I'm guessing that the flow rate is sufficent with respect to the overall internal gas volume to present no issues even in the case of sudden depresurization. So, you mean an M is currently ready to take pictures in space? Thats wonderful news for M users aren't they? What do you have to say about innovation now? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted October 1, 2009 Share #194 Posted October 1, 2009 Hardly the case with my 5D1 i must say so i rarely use the "as shot" WB personally. Matter of tastes and/or workflow i guess but to revert to the topic the fact that some photogs could choose or reject a camera like the M9 for its auto WB quality is simply beyond me. YMMV. I don't think anyone would choose or reject the M9 for its auto WB quality. I don't know where you're getting that. No one has raised that issue with the M9. The point is a philosophical one. The OP made a list of potential features and improvements the he feels are desirable. Many of the responses ridicule the list as evidence that he doesn't understand the Leica M philosophy -- many of the items are portrayed as unwanted, overcomplicated, too expensive, and so forth. But even a quick look at M history reveals a trend toward new features and refinements: bayonet mount, coupled rangefinder, optional motor winder, in-camera metering, aperture priority mode, more info in the viewfinder, and ... now the biggie ... a full-frame digital sensor. At any point in time, someone can dismiss and ridicule the next potential change as being outside the Leica philosophy because it's never been done before. For example, at one time, aperture priority mode was the province of SLRs. M users could say, A mode is an unneeded, unwanted complication and added expense: "You don't understand the M! If you want A mode, buy an SLR!" But at some point, Leica incorporates A mode (in the M7) and now A mode is totally acceptable in the M9. Is anyone not buying the M9 because it offers this "useless" feature called A mode? Doubt it. Instead, many people praise the M9 as being true to the Leica philosophy. And the strictly manual folks are quick to point out that you don't have to use aperture priority mode if you don't want to; you can just ignore it. I believe it's the same for many of the other suggested features. If Leica implements them in a sensible and reliable way, in a small camera, everyone will praise them as being true to the Leica spirit. I mean, will someone reject the M because it offers an LCD that's too good, or a startup time that's too fast, or an option for more frames per second? Or an optional dual-battery grip? Of course not. People will buy it. That's why the scorn and ridicule in this thread is so comical. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted October 1, 2009 Share #195 Posted October 1, 2009 I've got to hand it to you, MM. Having been slapped down, insulted and berated, you have still managed to consistently respond with dignity and reason throughout this thread. I find it interesting that some of the same people who were screaming for things like weatherproofing and recessed buttons with the M8 now find them unnecessary on the M9. Scratching my head here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted October 1, 2009 Share #196 Posted October 1, 2009 Hi modern Man, some of your suggestions would be "nice to have features" - but frankly many of them are just minor points IMO. The M8 allready worked fine and the M9 even better. How often do you have to change the sd card if you use 16 gig cards? How often is changing the battery after 200 images a problem? How often have you scratched your screen so far? etc etc etc Simplicity seems to be the central theme of your selected quotes. I don't think the merit of simplicity is in dispute, not by me anyway. However, I find it hard to imagine Einstein, da Vinci, Confucius, or the Dali Lama for that matter, objecting to items 1-17 (below for reference) on the basis of added complxity, or dilution of simplicity. In fact: item 2 makes the camera less prone to inadvertant error item 3 reduces the complexity associated with screw-in diopter lenses item 13 reduces the complexity assocated with carrying and deploying separate auxillary viewfinders, and screw-in magnifiers item 17 addresses the complexity of user profiles interfering with intended settings Which, if any, of these features necessitates added complexity? 1) Install/remove cards and battery without baseplate removal 2) Recessed buttons on back 3) Viewfinder diopter adjustment 4) Higher FPS (10 would be great, but at least 4) 5) Larger, higher resolution LCD (920k dot VGA) 6) Display on top of camera: exposure, battery, exposure comp, ISO, … 7) More info displayed in viewfinder: ISO, shutter (even when not using auto) 8) Weather sealing 9) Instant on – no perceptible delay until ready to shoot 10) Increased battery capacity via a grip with multiple battery capability 11) CF support for faster cards 12) Highly-wear-resistant black paint finish 13) Zoom viewfinder (or multiple discrete magnification settings) accommodating lenses from 21mm (or less) to 135mm. 14) Distance-corrected viewfinder – field of view correction in addition to the already present parallax correction. 15) MP sized body 16) Scratch resistant screen (sapphire or hardened glass) 17) User profiles where features may be unspecified so the profile does not affect the feature settings. BTW -- did you provide all those quotes from memory (which would be extraordinary IMO), or did you use software to retrieve that selection? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 1, 2009 Share #197 Posted October 1, 2009 ...The point is a philosophical one. The OP made a list of potential features and improvements the he feels are desirable. Many of the responses ridicule the list as evidence that he doesn't understand the Leica M philosophy... Yes he does not understand the M philosophy as i see it effectively. M users are rather conservative people who are totally unimpressed by newness for newness' sake. What is important for them/us is the photographer. Most of us don't need the latest up-to-date gadgets. Will the latters become new features some day, perhaps, perhaps not but we need a lot of time to simply think of it. We are like that and i'm perhaps the worst of us with the manual cocking of my beloved Epsons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted October 1, 2009 Share #198 Posted October 1, 2009 Games though, the more I think about it the more it makes sense, add games to the M9, much more interesting to the average tech bod than 'just' a camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernMan Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share #199 Posted October 1, 2009 In the video interview (An Interview with Leica's Stephan DanielKarbe) with no less an authority than Stephan Daniel (Leica Product Manager for the M9) he responds to a question on LiveView at 37 minutes 25 seconds into the video and states: "But of course LiveView would add into that camera a great benefit." while gesturing to the M9 in ftont of him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted October 1, 2009 Share #200 Posted October 1, 2009 In the video interview (An Interview with Leica's Stephan DanielKarbe) with no less an authority than Stephan Daniel (Leica Product Manager for the M9) he responds to a question on LiveView at 37 minutes 25 seconds into the video and states: "But of course LiveView would add into that camera a great benefit." while gesturing to the M9 in ftont of him. Did no one ask about games? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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