diogenis Posted September 25, 2009 Share #21 Posted September 25, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Not true. The M8 does not magnify anything. It does capture a smaller image for each focal length lens then a full frame camera does.100% on screen of a M8 image is the same as 100% on screen for a M9 image. Just that the M8 image has less width and height. If anything the M9 image would show focus inaccuracies more then the M8 because on a M9 to capture the same area as a M8 image you would use a longer lens. If you compare the two cameras with the same lenses, then M9 is more focus accurate due to cropping sensor of M8. Edit: because you magnify the end result to match that of the M9s... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 25, 2009 Posted September 25, 2009 Hi diogenis, Take a look here M9 focus accuracy. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
diogenis Posted September 25, 2009 Share #22 Posted September 25, 2009 In short, the rangefinder stays the same, but because of the cropped sensor in an M8, where for example shooting with a 35mm lux is like shooting with a 50mm, focus is more sensitive. With the M9 the procedure is more forgiving, you get a 1:1 mag Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 25, 2009 Share #23 Posted September 25, 2009 See my little chart here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/1021749-post1.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted September 25, 2009 Share #24 Posted September 25, 2009 See my little chart here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/1021749-post1.html In your post you state the CoC is different for the M9 and M8. Since both cameras use the same pixel dimension, and in the M9 there are just more of them, wouldn't the CoC be the same. Only if the M9 used larger pixels, reducing the total number, the CoC would go down. More pixels packed into a certain space the CoC goes up. Less pixels packed into that same space CoC goes down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 25, 2009 Share #25 Posted September 25, 2009 No Ed, the COC has nothing to do with the pixel size. It is a fixed constant in DOF calculations, dependent on the format of the receptor, be it film or sensor.. 0.03 for 24x36, 0.023 for a 1.33 crop sensor. In a rough calculation (mathematicians please correct ) there are about 10 pixels per M9 COC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmk60 Posted September 25, 2009 Share #26 Posted September 25, 2009 With a same lens on a M8 and a M9, focusing accuracy is better with the M9 because you get closer to the subject to capture a same scene and the subject appears larger in the viewfinder (same magnification) ??? cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmk60 Posted September 25, 2009 Share #27 Posted September 25, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) If you compare the two cameras with the same lenses, then M9 is more focus accurate due to cropping sensor of M8.Edit: because you magnify the end result to match that of the M9s... Sounds like 'camera shake issue'.. It has been said that the min shutter speed with the full frame cameras is 1/focal length but it should be higher with the cropped frame cameras because of the magnification... cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 25, 2009 Share #28 Posted September 25, 2009 It now seems Leica has implement a computer program that does all the visual analysis of the image for true focus and probably tell the tech what has to be moved and how much. This new system has probably greatly improved the focus accuracy of the RF. Especially it the tech had a bad night with a few to many schnapps. The new focus adjustment rig at Solms is a vast opto-mechanical device that resembles a series of 45 degree rulers (that so many here love to photograph) on an immense scale. The technician adjusts the camera on it by eye. Not a computer in sight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted September 25, 2009 Share #29 Posted September 25, 2009 All these discussions about whether the full-format M9 or the cropped M8 is better to foucus drive me nuts. Each times I read an argument for one of both opposing positions I think: that sounds reasonable. But only one position can be right, or not? So my humble question goes to one of those happy few who owns both cameras and the appropriate lenses - lets say a 75-Summicron and a 90 Summicron or a 35 Summilux and a 50 Summilux: can you please show us test photos which show the following settings of the same motiv (the motiv should allow to see the DoF clearly; wine bottles are great for this): 1. Same lens on both cameras with same distance and same aperture - which photo has the bigger DoF? This combination should be the easier to focus in an identical situation of distance between lens an motiv. 2. Same lens on both cameras, but with bigger distance for the M8, so that you get the same picture of the identical motiv with same aperture for both camera-lens-combinations. Do you see more DoF on one of both photos? This one should be easier to focus to achieve the same size of the capture. Or are both identical? Then the M9 should be easier to focus on shorter distances. 3. Comparison between the shorter lens on M8 and the longer on M9 with same distance to the motive to achieve - approximately - a similar size of capture. Is DoF (almost) identical? Then you could say, that on the same distance with the same size of capture to focus a shorter lens on the M8 is as difficult as focussing the longer lens on the M9. You could even countercheck this with the combination 75/90mm where the crop gives a slightly bigger focal length and 35/50mm where the crop gives a slightly shorter one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted September 25, 2009 Share #30 Posted September 25, 2009 Just to inject a non scientific but observed fact, yesterday I used the M9 + Noctilux @ f1.0 to photograph the dogs tussling over a stuffed toy in the kitchen (don't ask!) and I was supremely surprised at the number of in focus pics that I got, all mainly shot at a range of approx 2mtr. with both subject and camera constantly moving back and forth. I am sure I never had that sort of luck with the M8 + Noctilux. As I said, non scientific. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted September 26, 2009 Share #31 Posted September 26, 2009 left-brain analytical theory vs right-brain hands-on experience The commercial arts is filled with right brainers but forums are filled with left brainers. Sometimes, this can get very confusing. Right brainers can learn to deal with this situation by imagining what it would be like to argue with an autistic person. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted September 26, 2009 Share #32 Posted September 26, 2009 The new focus adjustment rig at Solms is a vast opto-mechanical device that resembles a series of 45 degree rulers (that so many here love to photograph) on an immense scale. The technician adjusts the camera on it by eye. Not a computer in sight. Have you looked at the video, Assembling the M9 over at LL. It shows that rig with the camera connected to a computer, through the USB port, and a camera of some type looking through the viewfinder displaying what you see through the viewfinder on a computer. It is at 11:00 minutes to 13:00 minutes. She focuses the lens by looking at the computer screen then takes a shot. That shot is downloaded to the ccomputer and the 2 images are compared in some way or the computer analyzes the image and determines if it is out of focus. So please take a look at it before you post another doozy. Maybe you saw that rig before there was computers, IE a Long Long Time Ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted September 26, 2009 Share #33 Posted September 26, 2009 The new focus adjustment rig at Solms is a vast opto-mechanical device that resembles a series of 45 degree rulers (that so many here love to photograph) on an immense scale. The technician adjusts the camera on it by eye. Not a computer in sight. Jaap you probably saw the rig in Solms in June too. Now it is shown in the assembly video. Those focus tragets are set at .7m, 1m, etc out to 8m and the technician does operate the standard 50 Summicron by hand to each focus increment. So in that sense it is by eye if you like. However the actual measurement process is much more sophisticated. The specialised computer system is analysing the target lines as displayed through the eyepiece by some interferometer like arrangement. That is potentially much more accurate than any vision based process and is one of the methods used to measure in lens element ground surfaces/coatings too. If you look at the assembly video again you can see the skilled operator bringing two projected points into coincidence on her screen. Presumably that delta is the deviation from acceptable tolerance. For me that process and the way the sensor alignments are measured rare very good examples of Leica's precision in assembly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted September 26, 2009 Share #34 Posted September 26, 2009 The new focus adjustment rig at Solms is a vast opto-mechanical device that resembles a series of 45 degree rulers (that so many here love to photograph) on an immense scale. The technician adjusts the camera on it by eye. Not a computer in sight. Addendum to my other post. Jaapv your response to my post was/is very condescending. You seem to just dismiss everything I have to say even when it is based in facts and post responses disputing what I say without even investigating my statements. Earlier in this thread you posted a statement that the M9 focuses easier then the M8. I had posted a reply to that and in the beginning of that reply I did suggest you have come up with some doozy replies lately. But I also ask how can that be, but using more words, and ask for your explanation of why you think that way. I had not read any of the other replies except the one right below yours which basically asked the same thing. After I did read some more of the replies I did make an attempt to apologize for that comment. You also disputed that fact that the M8 and M9 use a lower VF magnification then film M's because of the thicker body even after it was explained to all that would listen many times. Again totally dismissing what I and others had to said. The only saving grace was there were others that thought the same as you. But those opinions were proven wrong with the interview with Stephen Daniel when he said the reason for the lower magnification was because of the thicker body. He said that in a way suggesting to those that asked this question "Well of course it is", "Couldn't you figure that out on your own". This leads me to think/believe you have been hitting the laughing gas a bit to much. If the above comment ruffles your feathers so be it. Put me on your ignore list and be done with it. Or you could take what I say with a little thought and think Maybe he is right. Maybe I better check before I post a response. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 26, 2009 Share #35 Posted September 26, 2009 In your post you state the CoC is different for the M9 and M8. Since both cameras use the same pixel dimension, and in the M9 there are just more of them, wouldn't the CoC be the same... CoC size depends on the diagonal of the sensor (43.27mm for FF, 32.45mm for M8). Then if one chooses 0.030mm as CoC value for full frame, the M8's will be 0.030 x 32.45 : 43.27 = 0.023 mm. You might wish to take a look at this CoC calculator: Circles of Confusion for Digital Cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 26, 2009 Share #36 Posted September 26, 2009 Jaap you probably saw the rig in Solms in June too. Now it is shown in the assembly video.Those focus tragets are set at .7m, 1m, etc out to 8m and the technician does operate the standard 50 Summicron by hand to each focus increment. So in that sense it is by eye if you like. However the actual measurement process is much more sophisticated. The specialised computer system is analysing the target lines as displayed through the eyepiece by some interferometer like arrangement. That is potentially much more accurate than any vision based process and is one of the methods used to measure in lens element ground surfaces/coatings too. If you look at the assembly video again you can see the skilled operator bringing two projected points into coincidence on her screen. Presumably that delta is the deviation from acceptable tolerance. For me that process and the way the sensor alignments are measured rare very good examples of Leica's precision in assembly. I didn't see that video, when I saw it it was manual. A new addition again:) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 26, 2009 Share #37 Posted September 26, 2009 I didn't see that video, when I saw it it was manual. A new addition again:) Ah, if so, and right around M9 start of production, this could be a smart addition to the QC process I mentioned in my previous post : so both of the questions I quoted before maybe have been adressed : 1) Some subtle modification in the RF optics (I speculate the hue of the projected image) has made slightly better the action of RF alignement 2) QC on the RF assembly has been made strictier, assuring a higher mean precision of the tool. If so, a well done and smartly focused () job Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted September 26, 2009 Share #38 Posted September 26, 2009 I also had (and have) focus problems with the M8. Digital sensors may need more precision. I made a few test photos with the M9 a few days ago with my 35mm Summilux, and my impression was that the focus was somewhat "better". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreas_thomsen Posted September 26, 2009 Share #39 Posted September 26, 2009 my 1,4/35 had backfocus on my m8.2 is spot on at my m9 cheers andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 26, 2009 Share #40 Posted September 26, 2009 Ah, if so, and right around M9 start of production, this could be a smart addition to the QC process I mentioned in my previous post : so both of the questions I quoted before maybe have been adressed :1) Some subtle modification in the RF optics (I speculate the hue of the projected image) has made slightly better the action of RF alignement 2) QC on the RF assembly has been made strictier, assuring a higher mean precision of the tool. If so, a well done and smartly focused () job I wouldn't put it past them -a small change in the eye relief, or a different distance of the virtual image -who knows? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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