ho_co Posted February 18, 2011 Share #301 Posted February 18, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) This thread reminds me of a quote attributed to Schopenhauer: "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." We have reached that third stage. Apt and hilarious! Or, as Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us." ...truly amazing, zlatkob - there was even a feckless reference to my user name, the suggestion being that I was merely delivering yet another fable. Really. Thanks for the catch. Presented completely sans feck, and I had missed it completely! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Hi ho_co, Take a look here M9 shutter lag?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
SJP Posted February 18, 2011 Share #302 Posted February 18, 2011 You can also establish shutter lag with sound. Here two releases of the M9, one with 1/60 sec. (top panel) and one with 1/30 sec. (bottom panel) shutter time, sampled at 44.100 Hz. The first burst of sound happens right when pressing the button. Then there is a 0.09 second silence and the first curtain starts to travel, shown by the second burst. The third burst is the sound of travel of the second curtain, closing off the sensor. Remarkable how similar the sound waves are due to the exact way the mechanism of the shutter is operated. Every time the same way. Nice test! My compliments. How did you determine the start/end times & how did you get such a high sound level for pressing the shutter? If you start from first contact you get 1.257 to 1.345 in the first picture and 0.880 to 0.965 in the second giving a lag of 0.088 and 0.085 respectively, so 0.0865 s average lag. On the other hand, if we asume that the actual time of "full detent" of the shutter release button i.e. after half-detent and locking of exposure/shutter time etc. is the point of reference then the time becomes about 0.015s shorter, ie. 0.0715 s. This is still surprisingly longer than the timer applet suggests for my M8, I might check this myself when I get it back. Could it be that the shutter delay is related to emptying of a buffer before actuating the curtains? If that is the case the M8 would be roughly 2x faster than the M9 (due to 18/10.1 Mpix ratio). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted February 18, 2011 Share #303 Posted February 18, 2011 Could it be that the shutter delay is related to emptying of a buffer before actuating the curtains? If that is the case the M8 would be roughly 2x faster than the M9 (due to 18/10.1 Mpix ratio). If you want to compare the M8, M8.2 and M9, in terms of shutter lag, you should use the same test for each camera. Although the M9 has 80% more pixels, the electronics is also different. So just measure it and you will know. It would also be fun to place an M8 and M9 next to each other and fire the shutters with a dual cable release and make a video of the firing pair at 1200 frames/sec. Than you would immediately see the difference. You can hear the two first bursts in my recording when you switch the camera to the "discrete" mode, select "B" on the shutter dial and press the shutter button gently with finger and keep it pressed. You will hear two clicks fast after each other. In between those clicks the CCD is prepared for its light capturing task. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mby Posted February 18, 2011 Share #304 Posted February 18, 2011 You can also establish shutter lag with sound. Here two releases of the M9, one with 1/60 sec. (top panel) and one with 1/30 sec. (bottom panel) shutter time, sampled at 44.100 Hz. The first burst of sound happens right when pressing the button. Then there is a 0.09 second silence and the first curtain starts to travel, shown by the second burst. The third burst is the sound of travel of the second curtain, closing off the sensor. Remarkable how similar the sound waves are due to the exact way the mechanism of the shutter is operated. Every time the same way. (...) Based on Bert's terrific idea and work, here's a comparison with MP and M9: Leica MP 1/15s: Leica M9 1/15s Standard Mode: Leica M9 1/15s Soft Mode: Best regards, Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 18, 2011 Share #305 Posted February 18, 2011 Why choosing different units (s and ms)? Just curious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mby Posted February 18, 2011 Share #306 Posted February 18, 2011 Why choosing different units (s and ms)? Just curious. Unit's changed automatically by app iff t>1s... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
d2mini Posted February 18, 2011 Share #307 Posted February 18, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Only the Leica crowd could have 16 pages about indiscernible shutter lag. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted February 18, 2011 Share #308 Posted February 18, 2011 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nafpie Posted February 19, 2011 Share #309 Posted February 19, 2011 Only the Leica crowd could have 16 pages about indiscernible shutter lag. On 16 pages, we figured out (clearly) that 1) the shutter lag of the M8/M9 ist *NOT* indiscernible 2) the M8/M9 ist *NOT* superior over a DSLR regarding shutter lag 3) many photographers wish shorter shutter lag (as the film Leica Ms provide) No reason to press the 'restart button' here. Stefan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
d2mini Posted February 19, 2011 Share #310 Posted February 19, 2011 On 16 pages, we figured out (clearly) that 1) the shutter lag of the M8/M9 ist *NOT* indiscernible 2) the M8/M9 ist *NOT* superior over a DSLR regarding shutter lag 3) many photographers wish shorter shutter lag (as the film Leica Ms provide) No reason to press the 'restart button' here. Stefan Neither my D700 or M9 have ANY discernable shutter lag TO ME. What may be picked up by fancy sound recording equipment means nothing to me when all I hear is a click at the exact same time my finger presses the shutter. I can say with 100% confidence that even if it is shown scientifically that there is a millisecond of slight lag between the M9 or D700 and film M's, it would make absolutely zero difference between me getting "the shot" and missing it. With that kind of minute error, it's my brain and finger that is the weak point, not the camera. Which is what cracks me up. I've never heard anyone mention shutter lag about any modern dslr (or now the M9) due to their blazing speed.... except on the Leica forum. 16 pages of it. I'm not restarting the debate. You guys can hash it out till the cows come home for all I care. I just find it amusing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted February 19, 2011 Share #311 Posted February 19, 2011 I've never heard anyone mention shutter lag about any modern dslr (or now the M9) due to their blazing speed.... except on the Leica forum. 16 pages of it. It's not just a Leica forum topic. On another forum, the topic of shutter lag among dslr's is discussed from time to time. For example, it seems that everyone can tell the difference between the shutter lag of a Canon 5D or 5D2 and any of the Canon 1D series ... the 1D series being noticeably faster. In fact, that is one of the selling points of the 1D series. Photographers who have used both know very well that it does make a difference to their success rate when trying to capture peak moments. With slower cameras, the workaround is learning the camera's reaction time and anticipating action sooner. In my view, it's not an idle subject only picked up by fancy equipment, but can be a genuine practical consideration. Whether it matters to a photographer depends almost entirely on what one is photographing, and for much of photography it doesn't matter. Even so, I wouldn't be surprised if shorter shutter lag is one of the refinements we see in an eventual M10. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nafpie Posted February 19, 2011 Share #312 Posted February 19, 2011 I just find it amusing. Good for you. You may laugh about photographers who may work on different subjects, where the shutter lag IS a discernable issue. I am *NOT* talking about academic persnicketiness here. Yes, I learned how to precalculate the time of shutter lag (with other cameras) in order to get 'The Decisive Moment' under rapidly changing conditions. And yes, I appreciate that with film based Leica M cameras photography in that situations is easier. Yes, I would love to have a digital Leica M with the same short shutter lag. But yes, I enjoy using the Leica M9 anyhow. And now, go on with laughing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted February 19, 2011 Share #313 Posted February 19, 2011 In reaction to d2mini: Thanks for sharing your personal experience. That experience may be different from that of other users, who may have different subjects, brains and fingers. That is one part of the story. The other part is simply getting the facts right by measuring it. So there are two parts to the discussion: [1] How large is the shutter lag in the M9 ? [2] Does this lag have influence on the ability to capture decisive moments? The first point is out of the way by having measured it. The second point depends on the user and the subject. Photography has a lot to do with human movement control, which has been my field of research for the past few decades. From the things we found (among which experiments in Virtual Reality in which we manipulated lag) I can tell you that 0.1 second of lag can be very important in some situations. It is also true that people can get used to it and even compensate when the near future (parts of a second) is predictable. In simple reaction tasks that capacity to predict is not present. Try the following: you are standing under a roof and its is raining. There are a number of drops hanging from the gutter of the roof and you wish to have a photograph with a raindrop in mid air in front of a blurred landscape with the landscape shown in the drop upside down. When you are not too old, you need about 0.2 sec before your finger presses the shutter release button when you see the drop start to fall. In that time, the drop has fallen 20 centimeter. With a shutter lag of 0.09 seconds, the drop will have fallen 40 centimeter. So in that case shutter lag is not unimportant (20 centimeter difference). Another less unusual situation is you photograph a billboard and wait for someone to pass by who matches the item on the board. In that case you can see the person coming. But if you do not know there is shutter lag, you press 0.1 seconds too late and their head will have moved half the size of a head further (at walking speed) from where you planned it in the composition! When you have listened to the double click when pressing the shutter of the M9 in the discrete mode, you get a feel of the lag and can start to build it into your anticipation and get the shot right. Here is an example that I did that way: (the fact that the lady is seen three times in the picture comes from 1/30 of a second exposure time and a fluorescent lamp above her head. Multiply the distance between the first and last image by three and you have the effect of the shutter lag of the M9) But most of the time we make photographs in a less critical time scale and you will usually not notice the shutter lag is there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted February 19, 2011 Share #314 Posted February 19, 2011 Neither my D700 or M9 have ANY discernable shutter lag TO ME. I don't know about the M9 because I have never used one, but the D700 takes a shot when you want it to. Which is probably what you need. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/96390-m9-shutter-lag/?do=findComment&comment=1593028'>More sharing options...
andybarton Posted February 19, 2011 Share #315 Posted February 19, 2011 (the fact that the lady is seen three times in the picture comes from 1/30 of a second exposure time and a fluorescent lamp above her head. Multiply the distance between the first and last image by three and you have the effect of the shutter lag of the M9) With respect, that's not shutter lag - that's shutter speed, combined with the flicker of the fluorescent lamp. Almost like having three flashes go off sequentially. Shutter lag is the time between pushing the shutter button and the image being recorded. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted February 19, 2011 Share #316 Posted February 19, 2011 With respect, that's not shutter lag - that's shutter speed, combined with the flicker of the fluorescent lamp. Almost like having three flashes go off sequentially.Shutter lag is the time between pushing the shutter button and the image being recorded. Please Andy, read my posting carefully, you will understand what I mean: I use the exposure time to show how much the lady has moved in 1/30 of a second (exposure time) so that I know how much she has moved after 0.09 seconds (shutter lag) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nafpie Posted February 19, 2011 Share #317 Posted February 19, 2011 The first point is out of the way by having measured it. Yes. Excellent work. Thank you. The second point depends on the user and the subject. Right! Please allow me to add some thoughts: If the lag have influence on the ability to capture decisive moments, is answered clearly by the fact that nobody is able to predict the future. In most cases, it is relatively easy to predict what happens in the next 0.016 seconds. For sure easier than predicting how the situation in 0.09 seconds will be. Both - of course - are a walk in the park compared to a prediction of the next 24 hours. What I tried to say: The longer the time span of the prediction is, the more difficult the prediction will be. The weather forecast is another good example. Unpredictable (or hard to predict) situations, with subjects totally out of photographers control, are predestined domains for Leica M photography. Some called it 'Street photography'. Best, Stefan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nafpie Posted February 19, 2011 Share #318 Posted February 19, 2011 the D700 takes a shot when you want it to. Even the D700 has a shutter lag! But I admit it may be shorter than 0.09 sec. Your photo, BTW, says nothing about shutter lag. Stefan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted February 19, 2011 Share #319 Posted February 19, 2011 Please Andy, read my posting carefully, you will understand what I mean: I use the exposure time to show how much the lady has moved in 1/30 of a second (exposure time) so that I know how much she has moved after 0.09 seconds (shutter lag) Sorry, but to me the post wasn't clear. Are you trying to say that the M9 has so bad shutter lag that, in effect, this is the result - the woman would have walked roughly this far, between pushing the shutter and the image being recorded? I find this very hard to believe. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/96390-m9-shutter-lag/?do=findComment&comment=1593052'>More sharing options...
andybarton Posted February 19, 2011 Share #320 Posted February 19, 2011 Even the D700 has a shutter lag! But I admit it may be shorter than 0.09 sec. Your photo, BTW, says nothing about shutter lag. Stefan I know - but the lag is so small that you can take a shot when YOU want to and not at some other random time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.