gjames9142 Posted February 11, 2011 Share #261 Posted February 11, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I believe it is incorrect to state that there are some actions -- like pressing a button when a clock hand reaches a fixed position --that are "instantaneous:" and do not involve human reflex. Any motor action requires a set of signals that involves the brain, the spinal column, etc, and will take milli=seconds. Not necessarily a lot, but perhaps as much as 20 milliseconds. Either way it probably won't affect normal photographic decisions, but then, the M9 doesn't either, at least for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 Hi gjames9142, Take a look here M9 shutter lag?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ho_co Posted February 11, 2011 Share #262 Posted February 11, 2011 I remember seeing a note in Scientific American several years ago describing an experiment with strange results: As I recall, a subject was asked to watch a second hand and to randomly press a button as the hand passed one of the seconds marks, but not to decide ahead of time which mark was the one which would get the button press. In other words, the subject wasn't to plan when she would press the button, but to decide and press at the same time. Both the patient's decision-making brain waves and the motor neurons in her button-pressing hand were monitored. Repeatedly and reliably, the motor neurons involved in pressing the button responded a tiny fraction of a second before her brainwaves indicated activity in the region associated with deciding to press the button. The article's authors remarked that they had no explanation for the finding or its implications. Sorry, I've tried several times to find the article but haven't been able to, so I can't be any more specific. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in our philosophies." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted February 11, 2011 Share #263 Posted February 11, 2011 I believe it is incorrect to state that there are some actions -- like pressing a button when a clock hand reaches a fixed position --that are "instantaneous:" and do not involve human reflex. Any motor action requires a set of signals that involves the brain, the spinal column, etc, and will take milli=seconds. Not necessarily a lot, but perhaps as much as 20 milliseconds. Either way it probably won't affect normal photographic decisions, but then, the M9 doesn't either, at least for me. That sounds reasonable, but the brain "knows" about these delays and compensates for them. To demonstrate this try the following: take a stopwatch in your hand and start it. Now stop the stopwatch again as soon as it passes 5 seconds. Keep looking at the stopwatch and count mentally with the seconds and press on the passing of 5 seconds. You will see that it is possible to to that without loss in time. So if you can see an event coming up, like the the bouncing of a ball on the ground, you can press a button at exactly the same time, just like you can when the stopwatch passes 5 seconds. For the measurement of shutter time lag the way I did it, even if there would be such a delay in your hand coordination for which you can not compensate: they would be the same in both hands and will not influence the result. ho_co: Thanks, that finding fits in with what I've read in the literature: it appears that we are reported about decisions we have taken after the fact. You can measure potential changes on the skull of a subject before they know that they will move. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nafpie Posted February 11, 2011 Share #264 Posted February 11, 2011 A good photographer is very familiar with his camera and conscious about the shutter lag it has. Hence he is able to keep the shutter lag in mind when it comes to catch 'the decisive moment'. A short shutter lag helps a lot, because nobody can predict the future. Unfortunately, the shutter lag of the Leica M9 is on the bad end of the range in the professional camera category. Nevertheless its a great camera... Stefan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 11, 2011 Share #265 Posted February 11, 2011 FWIW last time i did the Ed Schwartz's Test in raw mode, the M8 was a bit faster (about 0.07 sec) than the D70 (0.08) vs 0.09 for the 5D and 0.05 sec for the R-D1. Did not test the M9 yet... I can't seem to retrieve this test on the web. Any idea where to find it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackal Posted February 13, 2011 Share #266 Posted February 13, 2011 I posted about this pretty much the day I got my M9, that is the very first day they were available in the UK. My camera goes "ker..chink" when you press the shutter. There are 2 distinct clicks with a significant delay between them. In fact if you have a slow shutter then in total there are 4 noises. The first is presumably some unlocking procedure, then the shutter opening, then the shutter closing and then finally the re-cocking sound. Its quite a torturous little chain of events and i'd rather it was one click, one noise with the shutter actuation AS you press the button. Of course you get used to it and you don't notice it in normal use but if I had my choice I would have it like my old M8 or M7 shutter. I don't care that it doesn't make any difference in real world shooting. I don't like it. It makes the camera seem a bit clonky and impure. Shame because it's about my only grumble. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted February 14, 2011 Share #267 Posted February 14, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) A dim memory is surfacing in my brain. I think I recall the R8, which I still have somewhere, makes the same sort of sequence of noises, giving the impression of 'slowness' and 'shutterlag', but in actual fact the result is OK. Another memory tells me the same shutter mechanism from the R8/9 is the same assembly used in the M8/9. Can anyone elaborate on, or correct this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted February 14, 2011 Share #268 Posted February 14, 2011 Erl, yes, according to the LuLa Stefan Daniel interview, the R8/R9 shutter is the one used in the digital M's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nafpie Posted February 14, 2011 Share #269 Posted February 14, 2011 ... giving the impression of 'slowness' and 'shutterlag' ... Again: It is not an impression only. The M9 shutter lag is real. Hard to understand, because there is not much to do for the camera after pushing the button (compared to a DSLR/Compact): No AF, no metering (in manual mode), no mirror flipping, no aperture movement, no sensor reset. Well... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted February 14, 2011 Share #270 Posted February 14, 2011 Again: It is not an impression only. The M9 shutter lag is real. Hard to understand, because there is not much to do for the camera after pushing the button (compared to a DSLR/Compact): No AF, no metering (in manual mode), no mirror flipping, no aperture movement, no sensor reset. Well... Not contradicting you here. My remark you quote is referring to the R8/9, not the M8/9. Shutter lag is real on all cameras. The question is, how much? I do not measure it mathematically, just in real life situations, for me. In those situations it is inconsequential. I accept it can be different for others. I think the reason for the M8/9 lag has been explained elsewhere, but I don't remember the content. Hopefully someone else will chime in with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nafpie Posted February 14, 2011 Share #271 Posted February 14, 2011 My remark you quote is referring to the R8/9, not the M8/9. I know. But the theory was, that both have the same shutters (probably to 'explain' the shutter lag amount). Shutter lag is real on all cameras. Sure. The question is, how much? That question has already been answered. The shutter lag of the M9 is about 5 times as long compared to a mechanic, film based Leica M camera. I do not measure it mathematically, just in real life situations, for me. Thats what I am doing as well. Stefan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted February 14, 2011 Share #272 Posted February 14, 2011 "My camera goes "ker..chink" when you press the shutter. There are 2 distinct clicks with a significant delay between them." "Hard to understand, because there is not much to do for the camera after pushing the button (compared to a DSLR/Compact): ..... no sensor reset." Actually, back when the M8 came out, there was a defect noticed if the camera was fired quickly after start-up or awakening - a "waterfall" pattern of vertical lines from the top of the image down. Leica determined that this was caused by the exposure being made before the sensor (or at least some part of the electronics) was fully up and running. The M8/M9/R8/R9 shutter has a lock (to prevent firing due to jolts, etc.) that unlocks a millisecond or so before the actual opening of the shutter begins. The original firmware ordering was: unlock shutter, ready the sensor circuits, fire the shutter. To prevent the waterfall bug, Leica reordered the steps as controlled by the firmware to: ready sensor, unlock shutter, fire shutter. Or at least that is how Leica explained the problem and solution at the time. Image showing M8 "waterfall" pattern - 12/2006 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/96390-m9-shutter-lag/?do=findComment&comment=1587852'>More sharing options...
SJP Posted February 15, 2011 Share #273 Posted February 15, 2011 Using this test the M8 shutter lag is less than 0.05 seconds, mostly 0 s (9x out of 10 typically). http://web.archive.org/web/20080425092207/http://www.shooting-digital.com/columns/schwartz/shutter_release_test/default.asp No idea what the M9 does. EDIT: got website from the wayback machine. Link was dead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nafpie Posted February 15, 2011 Share #274 Posted February 15, 2011 Using this test the M8 shutter lag is less than 0.05 seconds All the sources I know tell 0.08 seconds. No idea what the M9 does. The same. Stefan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 15, 2011 Share #275 Posted February 15, 2011 I can't seem to retrieve the Ed Schwartz test on the web. Any idea where to find it? Using this test the M8 shutter lag is less than 0.05 seconds, mostly 0 s (9x out of 10 typically)... This is the test i was looking for. Thanks for retrieving it. I found 0.07 seconds for the M8 a couple of years ago. The R-D1 did 0.05 and the 5D1 0.09 sec if memory serves. Did not test the M9 though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted February 15, 2011 Share #276 Posted February 15, 2011 ... got website from the wayback machine. Link was dead. Stephen--what's the wayback machine? Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted February 15, 2011 Share #277 Posted February 15, 2011 All the sources I know tell 0.08 seconds. <snip>I thought determining shutter lag was an empirical science, not hearsay? As far as I can tell the M8 shutter is instantaneous & I don't think I can "fool" the measurement by pressing just ahead of time. Pressing the stop button using my bluetooth mouse gives ca. 0.15 seconds lag. How about the M9 is it slower than the M8? I would be surprised. Only thing I still haven't succeeded in is making a picture of a golf-club hitting a ball (e.g. tee shot). Maybe that is too much to ask. Swing is about 0.25s, head of the club travels ca. 2m so v=8m/s. Getting anywhere near with such a shot would require about +/- 5 cm i.e. 0.05/8 = 0.006 s lag or better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted February 15, 2011 Share #278 Posted February 15, 2011 Stephen--what's the wayback machine? Thanks. Howard, see here: Internet Archive: Wayback Machine If a website or link is "dead" then sometimes you get lucky and they have a copy of the old site before its demise. Often multiple dated copies. No idea where they get the required disk space from. Just fill in the url and click "take me back". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted February 15, 2011 Share #279 Posted February 15, 2011 ...snipped Only thing I still haven't succeeded in is making a picture of a golf-club hitting a ball (e.g. tee shot). Maybe that is too much to ask. Swing is about 0.25s, head of the club travels ca. 2m so v=8m/s. Getting anywhere near with such a shot would require about +/- 5 cm i.e. 0.05/8 = 0.006 s lag or better. Stephen, I have done it successfully, but using rather unorthodox methods. I set the ball up on a tee with some fusewire taped to it. I then set a second fusewire taped to the tee such that it's free end was in the air just behind the wire on the ball. (It pays to have the two wires in a 'crossed' pattern to guarantee ultimate contact). The other end of the wires were connected directly to the trip circuit of a metz flash unit, attached to a Nikon (I didn't have a Leica at the time). The rig was triggered after dusk so that I could hold the shutter open on 'B' as the golf club was swung down to strike the ball, thereby closing the circuit to trigger the flash. 'Blam'! One picture of a squashed golf ball! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 15, 2011 Share #280 Posted February 15, 2011 ...I don't think I can "fool" the measurement by pressing just ahead of time... We all can more or less voluntarily i guess. Best way is to take multiple measurements and average them imho. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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