M9 shutter lag?

[nhabedi]

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I don't quite get a discussion of shutte lag based on how the camera sounds or seems to work. Has anyone who thinks there is one actually tried testing the shutter lag in practice? You don't have to wait for the film to be developed to find out. The old joke about p&s digital cameras shooting the horse's ass when trying to photograph its head applies here. My understanding is that Reid acutally took photos of a stopwatch. Anyone can do something similar. Have someone simply touch their nose with their finger and then withdraw it as fast as they can. Try to capture the finger while it's still on the nose. Isn't this what you want to do with the camera anyway? To be fair, do the same test with your M6 or M7 and then develop the film. There's no autofocus to slow down the shutter, so what does anyone think is responsible for the shutter lag?

 

Read the whole thread. Stop watches have been photographed already and the reason for the shutter lag was also explained.

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[jaapv]

Well, you thought that this was relevant (at least worth a thread) a few months ago and you were sure that the M8's shutter lag was "by far" less than 80ms (which turns out to be the correct value), so at that time you probably thought you could perceive 80ms?

 

If all of this is totally irrelevant, why does Nikon work so hard to have an extremely short shutter lag on their pro models although some of their semi-pro models are already faster than the M8? Why does Leica list a short shutter lag as one of the "core values of the Leica M system" (in a text that was written before the M8 came into existence)? And why do experts like Phil Askey say that one of the advantages of rangefinders over SLRs is that they have a shorter shutter lag?

 

I've seen praises for the extreme short shutter lag of the analog Ms more often than I can remember. That was cool and something to boast about as long as SLRs were slower. Now, in the digital world, there are some SLRs that are actually faster than the (digital) M and suddenly it doesn't matter anymore? Hmm...

 

There's a rabid detractor of the M8 in the German forum. Most of what he writes is nonsense or cynical or both, but he coined the sentence "Was Leica nicht kann, braucht man nicht." (In English that would be something like "If Leica can't do it, you don't need it.") I'm afraid there's some truth in it. Lots of people here like their Leicas so much that they simply can't imagine that something about them could be improved.

 

Anyway, I think I've said enough about this.

Well, I can only say, if you can differentiate between 0.08 sec and 0.10 sec in pressing a shutter, I'm duly impressed.

[nhabedi]

Well, I can only say, if you can differentiate between 0.08 sec and 0.10 sec in pressing a shutter, I'm duly impressed.

 

That's the difference between the M8 and the M9 and that was never the point. The point was to differentiate between analog Ms (ca. 0.01) and digital Ms (0.08 to 0.10) - that's a much bigger difference. And in January you claimed you could do it, so why shouldn't I be able to do it?

[jaapv]

That is quite another thing. You may recall that one poster claimed the M9 was "sluggish" compared to the M8 and a number of other posters claiming there was indeed a clear difference... Anyway, human reaction time being what it is we have to compensate in any case for a " finger lag" But yes, there is a difference between a film M and a digital M. I cannot recall anybody claiming a missed shot though. I would think that the soft function of the M9 should make it better than the M8 as there is less slack in the button to take up. I hope it will be made available to the M8 as well.

As for being defensive of the M8, another point in your post, I think you are wrong. I think I have identified more faults than you have.

[LondonM]

As mentioned, the stopwatch test can never work, because you learn to anticipate when it's going to hit 0 and you compensate...just like a good photographer would.

 

The only real test is to trigger a stopwatch and the shutter at the same time and then see what time the camera shows. I've done this with my left and right thumbs that most people can synchronize pretty damn well, with the camera facing the stopwatch. Digital or analog stopwatch, I'm getting well under 100 ms. I'd say closer to 50 ms (sorry Mr. Daniels). I asked my wife to do it. Same result. She knows nothing about shutters or cameras and thinks I'm insane. Left hand, right hand. Same result.

 

Did it with my DLux 4. Between 230 and 300 ms consistently. DOn't have a dSLR to test, but maybe one of you can.

[erl]

I've just done a two week "field test" with the M9 in India. It never failed to capture the precise moment in question over 2000+ images, but I must confess that sometimes I did. As a consequence, I have resolved to work on the 'weakest link' rather than the 'reliable link'. I did leave my stopwatch at home but did not miss it.

[FredSF]

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I personally noticed no difference with an M6. Perhaps a sophisticated machine could tell me otherwise.

[rondeb]

I'm nit surprised this hread has heated back up, but I am surprised to hear folks still contending that there is no noticeable differance between he M8 and M9. There is. My M8 AND M8.2 release quicker than my M9 - even in "soft" mode. I strongly believe Leica should and will address this in the next firmware as all electronics seem a little sluggish as mentioned in many other threads. Ie. playback, zooming, card formatting, etc.

The M9 is simply not as responsive as it's predecessor(s) and it should be at minimum. Especially when this is touted by Leica as one of the core benefits of the M.

I'm still out shooting with it and loving it, btw.

 

Best,

Ron

 

p.s. I do not have super power sensitivilty - it's an obvious difference.

[swamiji]

 

p.s. I do not have super power sensitivilty - it's an obvious difference.

 

 

To those with super powers, it's obvious, to us mortals, it's not. Perhaps you are taking your powers for granted.... or just being modest.

[jonoslack]

I'm nit surprised this hread has heated back up, but I am surprised to hear folks still contending that there is no noticeable differance between he M8 and M9. There is. My M8 AND M8.2 release quicker than my M9 - even in "soft" mode. I strongly believe Leica should and will address this in the next firmware as all electronics seem a little sluggish as mentioned in many other threads. Ie. playback, zooming, card formatting, etc.

The M9 is simply not as responsive as it's predecessor(s) and it should be at minimum. Especially when this is touted by Leica as one of the core benefits of the M.

I'm still out shooting with it and loving it, btw.

 

Best,

Ron

 

p.s. I do not have super power sensitivilty - it's an obvious difference.

 

HI Rondeb

Well, I think you're speaking of two things here - the shutter lag, and zooming / card formatting / playback.

 

The zooming / card formatting / playback, I'm sure you're right, will be fixed in a firmware update fairly soon. The shutter lag though, is dependent on the sensor design, and is less likely to have a solution.

 

I think I can tell the difference between the M8 and the M9 too (although I'm not sure how much of this is to do with the noise). However, I think that the real issue is KNOWING when the camera will take the picture - you must anticipate to get the shot, even with a camera with no shutter lag (there's finger lag, brain lag etc.). I must say, I'm not really aware of missing any decisive moments with the M9, and that's the point.

 

For me, the real problem with a camera is when you press the shutter and there is a variable time lag before it opens (lots of compacts to this).

[marcusperkins]

Shooting film Ms exclusively (sold the digital M quite some time back) highlighted the lag even more when I picked up a friend's M9 - a real slug in so many aspects of its operation. However, I'm sure they'll get it back to how the M should operate sometime in the near future. Leica are learning all the time, so I do have faith in them to get it right.

[rondeb]

HI Rondeb

 

The zooming / card formatting / playback, I'm sure you're right, will be fixed in a firmware update fairly soon. The shutter lag though, is dependent on the sensor design, and is less likely to have a solution.

 

For me, the real problem with a camera is when you press the shutter and there is a variable time lag before it opens (lots of compacts to this).

 

Thanks Jono. Interesting. Although in compacts, I thought the "time lag" had to do with slow autofocus and /or live view exposure adjustment. On the other hand - what's the difference between "time" lag and "shutter" lag anyhow?

 

Best,

Ron

[jonoslack]

Thanks Jono. Interesting. Although in compacts, I thought the "time lag" had to do with slow autofocus and /or live view exposure adjustment. On the other hand - what's the difference between "time" lag and "shutter" lag anyhow?

 

Best,

Ron

Hi Ron

Well, I guess that 'time' lag would cover slow autofocus, whereas 'shutter' lag covers the amount of time between everything else being sorted, you pressing the shutter and the release.

 

My point really is that one HAS to anticipate to catch moments (to a certain degree), so that the real killer is when the lag is variable (which it isn't with the M9). Don't get me wrong, I'd love it to be instant, but I'm not finding it a contributor to missed moments.

[erl]

Just bringing a rusty bit of history up here. I spent a very large portion of my working life shooting Hasselblad. Mostly NOT on a tripod but in the style of a 35mm slr, with which I frequently needed to compete. The shutter lag with that camera is considerable, relative to what we think of in Leica terms when you realize there is a MF mirror to slide out of the way, not to mention aperture to stop down before the shutter is free to fire. My point is that one learns to know these things and to allow for them in your use of the gear and anticipation of what you are shooting. Anticipation is the key. If you don't have that, shutter lag never gets a look in anyway. Sensing the effect of your shutter is the critical bit. Not how long or short it is, but where it sits in the balance of your thinking and reflexes - within reasonable limits obviously.

[marcusperkins]

Long before digital was available, one of the benefits of the Leica M was its short release time. This was seen as a big advantage, and often cited as important in successful street photography.

 

Now the short release time is not currently available on the M8/9, it is suddenly no longer important, and never was.

 

If for some bizarre reason Leica decided to make the viewfinder blackout during exposures, I'm sure I'll be reading comments like "Well it's not really that important, there's not really a benefit in seeing through an exposure. Back in the very old days we could barely see anything through dim viewfinders".

 

And yet the minute the issue of the relatively slow release is resolved, you'll all be boasting how wonderful it is, and how you could never have managed to capture a particular image without the instant response of the Leica rangefinder.

 

Regardless of whether it does or does not affect a photographer, it is on the slow slow side, and very slow in comparison to the film Ms - an undeniable fact.

 

Nobody needs a fast frame rate rangefinder, but I think most people would benefit from a responsive camera in the tradition of the film Ms. Many aspects of the M9 are slow and frustrating: formatting, file writing and picture review. For a sizable number, the shutter lag is a little frustrating too. It certainly was for me.

 

The length of this thread suggests there is an issue here.

[stunsworth]

Has no one thought about reaction times?

 

I can't say that I've ever found my M8 any less responsive than my M6.

[nhabedi]

Has no one thought about reaction times?

 

We have and we discussed this already. The point is, the reaction time happens before you press the button, the shutter lag comes afterwards. These two add up, there's no magical way in which they compensate each other.

[stunsworth]

...there's no magical way in which they compensate each other.

 

Indeed there's not, but might one person's "sluggish camera" actually be down to their reaction time? Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but it's a very long thread.

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[wparsonsgisnet]

In reading this short thread, I have been giving the subject of lag a lot of thought.

 

I still claim not to notice any difference in "lag" between my M4, M6, M8, and M9. So, I did some calculations.

 

My end product for this discussion is an image of a dancer in the air.

 

Let's suppose that a dancer in the air is moving at 10 miles per hour. I think it's probably more like 20, but let's use 10 in this case. And, I am under the impression the 100ms = 0.1 seconds.

 

Speaking of my M9, with a 100ms shutter "lag," during 100ms, that dancer moves 1.4 feet. With regard to the M4/M6, using a 12-15ms "lag," the dancer moves 0.22 feet. That is, during the "lag" on an M4/M6 the dancer moves 2 1/2 inches; and during the lag for the M9, the dancer moves 17 inches.

 

These are the windows during which I can MISS the image I am seeking (if my math is right). (I think this turns out not to be important, for the reason I give below.)

 

For all of these cameras, I have been able to capture a dancer at the peak of a leap. If the picture is taken too early or too late, there is no sense of suspension. The ballet term "balon" refers to the dancer's ability to seem to hang suspended at the top of the arc of leap. It is an apparent suspension of gravity and highly envied by dancers who do not have it.

 

That moment is the instant at which I seek to capture an image.

 

Again, I have been able to do this will all of these cameras -- and, again, I assert that I do not see any difference in the shutter "lag" between these cameras. And, to be fair, there are those who use the inferior SLR device who can also capture this instant.

 

So, it must be that I am hearing the shutter during the act of taking the picture. At a 100ms "lag" I have to take 17 inches of movement into account, and the top of the arc is where the dancer has to be.

 

If I am not subject to the effect of different "lags" then hearing the shutter must be the explanation.

[nhabedi]

I think there's no question that you can train yourself to compensate for any kind of (consistent) shutter lag as long as it ain't too long (and 100ms certainly ain't too long). The ability of the human body to compensate for all kinds of things is remarkable in this respect.

 

Still, this'll need experience and getting used to. (It'll also be interesting to see how one copes with shooting demanding scenes while regularly switching between an M9 and, say, an M6. But one can probably adapt to that as well albeit it might need even more training.) I think there's no question that Leica didn't add this tenth of a second on purpose or "because it doesn't matter" but because they couldn't do better at that time. As I said, I'm sure they'll work hard on this and future digital Ms will have shorter shutter lags. No matter what people in this forum say...