More rumors: Apparently, M9 is not the only camera to be announced on 09/09?

[rosuna]

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The problem is that the particular quality of the CDD is one of the selling points for the Leica. If Leica goes to an off-the-shelf CMOS sensor with live view, so it can mount an electronic viewfinder...why wouldn't a customer just buy a compact DSLR like the Pentax K7? There seems to be little point in making the Leica a kludged DSLR.

 

Well... future CMOS back-illuminated will provide "live view" functions without loss in receptive surface. Kodak is working on CMOS sensors now. Using their color filters and without AA filters an advanced CMOS sensor should perform like a CCD, or very, very similar.

[Guest BigSplash]

Once again: the difference between the lens registers of the M and R is about 19mm. It is not possible to build a Visoflex that thin: there'd be no room for the mirror or beam-splitter and focusing screen.

 

If the goal is to allow existing R lenses to be used to their full on an "M" body, the only way is to provide (1) live view in the body, (2) an M-R adapter that works the auto-diaphragm and transfers ROM and aperture information from the lens to the body, and (3) a really good EVF.

 

This could not work with a M8 because it doesn't have live view, and so far I've seen no hint that the M9 - if 'e come - will have live view and the electronic connections around the lens mount to communicate with and power the M-R adapter.

 

When or if someone's designing an M body with live view, it's a no-brainer to provide for an EVF. But building the EVF as a unit with the M-R adapter makes it less versatile, because it could only be used with R lenses. An EVF that attached to the body would be a lot more use - usable with any lens, microscope, telescope etc.

 

In short, there's no point asking for a Visoflex that mounts R lenses on an M body - and IMHO it doesn't help any to call a lens adapter and EVF a "Visoflex".

 

John I agree with you.

I have repeatedly said, both here and in previous threads since two months that I DO NOT MEAN A 40 YEAR OLD MIRROR HOUSING CALLED A VISOFLEX......

 

I am of the belief that the Leica M system would benefit from (1), (2), or (3) as you suggest above and if it was an EVF that attached to the body this would be great.

 

Some people (not you) are either too stupid, or do not take in what I have said and see the word Visoflex and react negatively without thinking.

 

Let me say again I DO NOT mean the old mirror housing unit....I have repeatedly said that technology has moved on and to be blunt if someone had suggested an EVF when the original Visoflex was launched they would have had to implement the EVF using CRT and valve technology!.....today we have integrated circuits, LCD's and much more.

 

However it is implemented is for me not relevant. As a user I like the M8 as a rangefinder camera and it does me just fine for 80 to 90% of my photography. Occassionally I want to do some macro work and I can do this with my old Visoflex ...which by the way is covered in the new M8 book by Brian Bower. Many people have suggested in this forum that they too use their old visos ..so there is a need albeit an occassional one. Some of the photos that people have taken with old visos are breathtaking.

 

My point is that Leica as a company should in my view introduce something that addresses this need using new technology and in so doing should extend the capabilities of the "M" camera and increase their business.

[David M.]

For a while I have stick with my M8...

[David M.]

I also believe there will be another p&s camera available...

[Guest BigSplash]

You need some serious, professional therapy for this obsession, IMHO. This isn't healthy. Sorry, Frank. I truly believe that you live in a world of clouds and cuckoos.

 

Many will NOT buy into this concept because it is basically completely flawed. The Visoflex is as relevant today as glass plates. OK, some diehards use glass plates...

 

You are never going to get a typical Canon or Nikon SLR user to use an M, when a typical Canon or Nikon SLR is the much better choice of tool for that particular job.

 

The sooner that you accept this, the sooner you can appreciate the M for its considerable strengths, not try to overcome its weaknesses (as Leica HAD to, when they brought out the Visoflex in the first place). If Leica thought that the Visoflex was a viable product, whey do you think that they saw sense and stopped making them 20 years ago?

 

Andy why the aggression? " I do not live in a world of clouds and cuckoos"

 

I do appreciate the "M" for what it is. I actually think that it is the best camera series ever made and the M8 (M8.2) are the ultimate cameras on the market today.

 

That is very different to saying that these cameras cannot be developed further and that add on accessories USING MODERN TECHNOLOGY would not be something that would allow the M camera to extend its reach into new areas of photography (eg Macro).

 

You seem yet again to sieze on the word VISOFLEX and think I mean a 40 year old mirror housing, yet I am referring to EVF, Liveview, ad new technologies that Leica themselves have suggested that they are working on.

 

You seem to lose it as soon as you see the word VISOFLEX and do not read what I am saying...please in future could you be less aggressive and read what I am writing. Thanks

[giordano]

Frank, if you think there should be a live view M body with add-on (or built-in) EVF and a sophisticated adapter for R lenses, great. I've said before that I rather expect the adumbrated R-solution to take this form. But it won't work on the M8, probably not on the M9, and won't in the least resemble a Visoflex. Please don't confuse the issue by talking as if it will.

[Guest BigSplash]

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So why didn't Leica generate that level of penetration when the original Visioflex was available? Why did people instead prefer to buy an SLR at a time when M rangeinders were a lot more popular than they are now?

 

If anyone knows the actual sales figures for Visioflexes I'd be grateful to know the number.

 

Good questions.....but if you read what I said again please note:

1 I am NOT suggesting a 40 year old mirror housing. I am suggesting a new EVF or liveview or ?? technology that allows a M user into the domain of macro and telphoto.

2 Many people will be more eager to buy a rangefinder in my view if they can see a way forward to take macro and telephoto shots albeit using an adapter ......THAT THEY MAY NEVER BUY OR USE......However these people may be persuaded to buy the M camera and not go the SLR route if they see that they COULD ONE DAY ADDRESS MACRO etc. Certainly many years ago I was persuaded to buy the M camera as I saw it as a system with many accessory options.

[Guest BigSplash]

The problem is that the particular quality of the CDD is one of the selling points for the Leica. If Leica goes to an off-the-shelf CMOS sensor with live view, so it can mount an electronic viewfinder...why wouldn't a customer just buy a compact DSLR like the Pentax K7? There seems to be little point in making the Leica a kludged DSLR.

 

I think the solution might be an M-mount (or R-mount) G1-type camera from Panasonic, in partnership with Leica, with an APS-C or -H CMOS sensor, to be sold for $1,500 or so. I think they'd sell one to virtually every Leica owner, as backup or special-purpose cameras, and even bring some new Leica-glass customers through the door.

 

JC

 

You maybe correct....I have heard this rumour from my dealer. Personally I could see such a unit as being an entry level "Leica digital CL" and it could offer something to compliment the Leica M.

[Guest BigSplash]

I saw a Visoflex on my dealer's shelf a couple of months ago.

 

He'd had it for months, waiting for someone to come along.

 

In the meantime, he was selling 3 M8s a week...

 

Actually if you look on ebay prices for old visos are increasing .....maybe your dealer has sen that trend and has priced to value, whereas M8's are dropping in price as dealers get ready for 9 Sept....

[Guest BigSplash]

For some people yes, but how many? If there weren't enough R users to support an R10, how many people are going to buy a Visioflex and a new set of lenses that would also be needed?

 

in all the time I've been using Leicas I've seen dozens, maybe even low hundreds, of people using Ms. I've never seen anyone using a Visioflex. Anecdotal evidence I concede, but how many have ever seen a Visioflex user who uses the system on a regular basis instead of an SLR?

 

How many people have you seen using macro lenses with bellows with a "general purpose" SLR.

 

My neighbour has a pro studio with Phase one kit and he exclusively photographs antiques and similar for catalogues ...that is not the niche I believe that Leica should consider.

 

The occassional usage of a fabulous M camera with excellent lenses, sensor , shutter and associated electronics to photograph in the Macro range is what I believe many would welcome.

 

I do not have the 800mm but I do have the 560mm, 400mm, and 280mm Telyt lenses and frankly I hardly use them. That said I shall be attending the September 27th regatta Royale from Cannes to St Tropez and I plan to bring the "big guns" for the event and shoot the crews on the Classic Yachts as they pass me by. ...This is not possible with a 135mm . as I have tried this several times in previous years.

 

I seems that many people here say I have with the M the wrong camera for Telephoto and they are correct. For me the alternative that is recommended is to buy a completely new camera system (Nikon or Canon) .....why?

 

If Leica came out with a "Box" that allowed me to connect "M" (or "R") lenses (in the macro or Telephoto range) to it I am very interested. If they introduced a new Viso ..well maybe but it would have to outperform my 30 year old Viso.

[stunsworth]

How many people have you seen using macro lenses with bellows with a "general purpose" SLR.

 

I never have. Which is precisely why it would be stupid of Leica to develop such a system for the M range. The sales would be rather like the subjects such a system would photograph. Minute.

 

Of course my experience could be untypical, and bellows could be very well selling items.

[the*emperor]

The M9 has a FF sensor that just works in combination with a EVF/Visoflex for R-Lenses!

By using M-Lenses there will be some kind of "crop-mode"...

[rosuna]

The M9 has a FF sensor that just works in combination with a EVF/Visoflex for R-Lenses!

By using M-Lenses there will be some kind of "crop-mode"...

 

The EVF on the hot shoe would be easy to manufacture... for Panasonic (they did it for the GF1, soon to be presented). But Leica can work with partners, isn't? And a R to M adapter would be easy to design. The only problem is how to get the automatic aperture for wide-open position (during focusing) for R lenses. This "solution" would expand the posibilities of the M system (teles, macro... even AF lenses).

 

It sounds simple and not too complex, but... the camera would need some kind of "live view" capabilities, and this brings sensor and electronics problems, which are not easy to solve for Leica at this moment (I suppose).

[rosuna]

 

When or if someone's designing an M body with live view, it's a no-brainer to provide for an EVF. But building the EVF as a unit with the M-R adapter makes it less versatile, because it could only be used with R lenses. An EVF that attached to the body would be a lot more use - usable with any lens, microscope, telescope etc.

 

None said the EVF would be attached to the R-to-M adapter. The EVF can be a separate and independent device (wait a bit and look the EVF for the GF1 camera of Panasonic, which is mounted on the hot shoe with a special port placed just below). This EVF can support M lenses too. The optical viewfinder and rangefinder would be there, but this accesory viewfinder can provide the best solution for special lenses (tele, macro, tri-elmars), replacing "googles", "frankenfinders", magnifying glasses, etc. It can be sold as a separate accesory for M cameras, and used just like any other external viewfinder (at the eye level).

 

A CMOS sensor can provide "live view", but the light sensitive surface is smaller than a equivalent CCD. But the M9 will bring a larger sensor, so you can offer more resolution AND the same light sensitive surface area at the same time as the traditional CCD is replaced by a CMOS. Kodak can design CMOS sensors (they do it). Two key factors for image quality (color filters and abcense of AA filter) don't depend on the specific architecture of the sensor.

[tobey bilek]

There are lot of people who knock the viso. I can tell you that you are wrong. The release on 1, 11A, and 111 are soft so there is NO mirror vibration. The quick release mode of the 111 and original 11 are ahead of the shutter by an adjustable amount and cause no significant problem.

 

The focus Screens are useable to small apertures like f11 unlike SLR`s unless they are made special for that.

 

I must admit the design is nothing to look at, but in practice for many things it can not be bettered.

 

The black 65 3.5, 90 2.8 , 125 2.5, 135 4.0 are outstanding lenses. The 200 and 280 400 560 are improved by Leica R glass.

 

I suspect the viso will fit to the M9 and be fully functional. The problem is going to be finding the lenses in good condition + plus the required adapters and short focus mounts.

My complete set is still available.

 

If I had to pick a EVF or viso, it would be viso every time.

[andybarton]

Actually if you look on ebay prices for old visos are increasing .....

 

I will take your word for that Frank

 

I have better things to do with the short period that's left of my life, than to monitor eBay prices for obsolete camera equipment.

[andybarton]

You maybe correct....I have heard this rumour from my dealer.

 

Your dealer seems particularly chatty, Frank. And yet he didn't say "This is in strictest confidence, Frank"?

 

South coast of France, wasn't it?

[dpstjp]

in all the time I've been using Leicas I've seen dozens, maybe even low hundreds, of people using Ms. I've never seen anyone using a Visoflex. Anecdotal evidence I concede, but how many have ever seen a Visoflex user who uses the system on a regular basis instead of an SLR?

 

You weren't at the Brading Haven Regatta on the IoW this weekend, were you? I was using one of my Visoflexes with a 200mm lens on my M8.1 to photograph the yachts racing. The 280mm, 400mm and 560mm are a little on the large size to use at sea... You do lose a few shots, I'll admit.

 

Framing can be a problem since my boat was bobbing about rather a lot. jaapv is right, you need to set the shutter speed manually (not so much of an issue with a light meter as the light was fairly consistent). That way you don't need to worry as much about waiting a little longer after the mirror goes up to allow the M8 to gauge the right exposure before fully depressing the button. You need to watch out that you don't accidentally knock the aperture ring open a little each time you use it, otherwise the manual shutter speed becomes a problem.

 

It's rather bulky to get into and out of my waterproof bag, meaning I did miss a wonderful shot of a ketch's sails mirroring the sweep of the Spinnaker Tower in Portsmouth across the Solent.

 

Of course a DSLR would be easier, but it'd be much less fun using one, and I would find it very difficult (and even more bulky) to justify having a DSLR system as well as the M and medium format. I'd also want one that could be converted into a rangefinder so I can use all that lovely M glass.

 

I think that the Visoflex is to photography what Neanderthal man is to Homo Sapiens. A dead end only of interest to fossil hunters. That doesn't stop people going to the Natural History Museum, does it?

 

However I do believe that if Leica try and resurrect the DNA of the Visoflex frankly they deserve to go the way of Jurassic Park.

 

No, I am NOT a CEO...

 

dpstjp

[andybarton]

Groundhog day...

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[stunsworth]

Do we have to retype everything we wrote between yesterday evening and now?