Leica refuses to confirm M9 launch...

[hoppyman]

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OK Andy, that is as I surmised except that I did not know that you invented the 9.09.09 date. That will be news to a lot of people who are quoting it now.

So I am suggesting that you might consider saying 'my guess is' or something similar when you post speculation or rumour.

When you make flat statements as though you know something definitely people tend to take you more seriously as you are a moderator. Some rumours, especially if reinforced may not be beneficial for Leica. Just this member's opinion.

 

Having been in Solms in June with the crew and toured the factory as well as listening to Stefan, I just cannot support any idea that some 'NEW product to sell from the get-go' could possibly materialise in September. Certainly an announcement is theoretically possible. That is not the same as availability. As you know the S2 is yet to achieve serial production although now said to be on schedule with prices announced for October.

 

I have no inside knowledge, only what I read here and elsewhere. Being a Moderator allows no special priviledges... only grief...

 

Of course, if I had official information, I would most likely be under an NDA. If I were under an NDA, I would Not Disclose Anything. This is not the same as spreading rumours, it's just trying to second guess what might happen.

 

The 09/09/09 date was just something I made up in early July, when the rumours of an M9 in the Autumn started to surface. As I have said before, it's too good an opportunity to miss, from a marketing point of view. Maybe too obvious, but what the hell. I'd like to see a Ridley Scott "1984" quality advert to go with it...

 

Rumours have since come from the Far East, and a French Magazine, well known for being more right than wrong in their inside information. Add the Sammy's in LA day on 10/09 (which may just be a coincidence, and I don't buy the "Can't happen because the reps would be in New York the day before", argument. Reps would have been told about this by now, not the same day), and a picture starts to develop.

 

You also have the new London Leica Store opening in September, and wouldn't it be nice to have some NEW product to sell from the get-go? The S2 will give a second chance to crack open a few more bottles of French fizz a month later.

 

Happy to eat crow on 10/09 when nothing happens

[jonoslack]

Don't. eat crow right then, Andy, There is a timespan. September 13th might be something too.

 

Funny you should mention it, but we were discussing this very issue. Apparently crow is very tasty.

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[andybarton]

There is a thread in another forum where, IMO, the highly respected Iliah Borg states that the pre-production M9 clearly has different colours than the Mk2, and that they are EXACTLY the same like the ones from the M8.

 

This could mean that Kodak is the supplier, but could it also mean that it's the same sensor?

 

 

Borg must be under an NDA if he's got his hands on a pre-production example.

[andybarton]

My guess is that there's more to it than me just making up the date. But that's just my guess and an input of serendipity with regards to dates. Especially with the news that's coming through from C d'I and elsewhere. If there are RAW experts (previously unknown to me before this afternoon) discussing pre-production examples, then that's more than just rumour.

 

Something's coming. I can feel it in my water.

 

And I am not going to mention any date about anything, ever again.

 

 

 

OK Andy, that is as I surmised except that I did not know that you invented the 9.09.09 date. That will be news to a lot of people who are quoting it now.

So I am suggesting that you might consider saying 'my guess is' or something similar when you post speculation or rumour.

When you make flat statements as though you know something definitely people tend to take you more seriously as you are a moderator. Some rumours, especially if reinforced may not be beneficial for Leica. Just this member's opinion.

 

Having been in Solms in June with the crew and toured the factory as well as listening to Stefan, I just cannot support any idea that some 'NEW product to sell from the get-go' could possibly materialise in September. Certainly an announcement is theoretically possible. That is not the same as availability. As you know the S2 is yet to achieve serial production although now said to be on schedule with prices announced for October.

Edited August 7, 2009 by andybarton

[charlesphoto99]

Well 9/9/09 is the releAse date of the Beatles remasters (I have the limited mono box set on pre-order). Perhaps Leica will release a limited M8 that day with UK flag covering and John, Paul, George, and Ringo signatures. Not!

 

I'm sure the M9 is coming (the company's survival depends on it), no M8.3 (too confusing for the consumer, would tank big time). It's just a matter of when. Hopefully this time when it's ready and fully tested.

[scaryink]

I was hoping for the Fellini special edition - the 8 1/2. Darn.

[sandymc]

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This could mean that Kodak is the supplier, but could it also mean that it's the same sensor?

 

Here's the thing - Kodak's web site doesn't list either an FF sensor or cropped sensor with more pixels than the current one (that I can find anyway). But it would be really unusual to get a sensor from another manufacturer with exactly the same color response.

 

But this starting to feel a bit odd - an M9 with the old 10.7 MP high-ISO-performance-one generation-behind sensor? Doesn't make sense to me. So maybe this is a yet-unreleased new-generation sensor from Kodak?

 

Sandy

[sdai]

The new sensor could be the same as the S2 sensor albeit cut smaller, with a 1.33x cropping factor, it'll be 13.57MP ... if full frame, it'll be 24MP and I don't believe it'll happen this time.

 

The biggest gripe about the 8/8.2 is not full frame or not IMO. Even when sporting the identical sensor but with refreshed electronics/software shared with the S2, it would mean night and day difference.

[perb]

I had a look at Kodak's web and they don't show the S2 sensor either. Why then would they show the assumed M9 sensor?

 

The M8 sensor has 6.8mu pixels, and I think the S2 will have 6mu pixels. The only sensor wit 6mu pixels is the 50MPix one. Comparing data for sensors with 9, 6.8 and 6 mu it is clear that there is a (small) penalty for smaller pixels. This means that, assuming no improvement on sensor data, the S2 sensor will be about the same or slightly worse for high ISO. A cutback version for M9 therefore is not going to be better at high ISO than the M8 sensor, possibly worse. I wish we could have an upscaled M8 sensor for the M9 instead, and I hope Kodak actually have improved performance as well.

 

Regards

Per

[mhoersch]

If you're talking about the "THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN" article in the 05/2009 issue of LFI, there's nothing there to suggest the new lenses don't perform to Leica standards on both film and digital bodies. Perhaps you can point us to exactly where things are "just terrible" on the M7 with these lenses?

 

Please look at the test images on pages 44 and 46:

 

Both the Summilux 21 and 24 are considerably less sharp stopped down to f2.8 than the corresponding Elmarits wide open (also f2.8) in the image corners of M8 images, and much worse still in the corners of M7 images. At f2.8 the Summiluxes are much less sharp than the Elmarits and in addition to that on the film M7 strongly vignetted.

 

So for those two extra f-stops you are not only paying 1.700 € (24mm) or 1.900 € (21mm) more than for the Elmarits, you also get a much heavier and clumsier lens and much less image quality stopped down than the "cheaper" Elmarits wide open.

[sdai]

A cutback version for M9 therefore is not going to be better at high ISO than the M8 sensor, possibly worse.

 

Sensor performance alone doesn't determine the end result. Most noise reduction is done in peripheral electronics and post processing, for example, the same Sony 6MP CCD sensor has been repeatedly used in many DSLRs from various manufacturers, the file qualities are vastly different across the board.

[jaapv]

Please look at the test images on pages 44 and 46:

 

Both the Summilux 21 and 24 are considerably less sharp stopped down to f2.8 than the corresponding Elmarits wide open (also f2.8) in the image corners of M8 images, and much worse still in the corners of M7 images. At f2.8 the Summiluxes are much less sharp than the Elmarits and in addition to that on the film M7 strongly vignetted.

 

So for those two extra f-stops you are not only paying 1.700 € (24mm) or 1.900 € (21mm) more than for the Elmarits, you also get a much heavier and clumsier lens and much less image quality stopped down than the "cheaper" Elmarits wide open.

Are they? I am sorry, I must have an anomalous Summilux 24 - and yes, I can compare to the Elmarit 24

[adan]

With both the DMR and the M8, Kodak announced the sensor details only at the time the camera(back) was announced by Leica, not before. These are not off-the-shelf sensors out of Kodak's catalog, they are proprietary designs to Leica's specs (especially for the M cameras), so I'm sure there are non-disclosure agreements. Kodak puts the sensors in their catalog once the cameras are released - I'm not aware of any other customers for the "Leica" sensors, though.

 

@hoppyman - reading CEO Spiller's comments in the Leica annual report just published, I think he is pushing very hard for a speed-up in product development cycles, both inside Leica and with their external partners (Panasonic, maybe other new ones). I think that many previous statements from Leica, even as recent as those in June, may have become "inoperative" since then.

 

I still have some doubts that an M9 will actually be available for purchase by the end of Sept. - but those doubts are far less firm than they were a week ago. I think Spiller is very serious about wanting to get products on the market soon and boost Leica's income.

[sandymc]

These are not off-the-shelf sensors out of Kodak's catalog, they are proprietary designs to Leica's specs (especially for the M cameras), so I'm sure there are non-disclosure agreements.

 

Don't want to disappoint you, but its an off-the-shelf KAF-10500. With microlenses, but microlenses are available to anyone who wants them - to quote Kodak: "Options include anti-blooming support, microlens availability, and color or monochrome selection'

 

Sandy

[adan]

Sandymc - open mouth, insert foot:

 

Kodak sensor in Leica M8: Digital Photography Review

Leica M8, Exclusive Preview: Digital Photography Review

 

Kodak created the KAF-10500 specifically for the M8, and introduced it publically Sept. 15, 2006, a day AFTER the M8 was introduced.

 

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak, and remove all doubt." - A. Lincoln (also attributed to various others)

[sandymc]

Sandymc - open mouth, insert foot:

 

Kodak sensor in Leica M8: Digital Photography Review

Leica M8, Exclusive Preview: Digital Photography Review

 

Kodak created the KAF-10500 specifically for the M8, and introduced it publically Sept. 15, 2006, a day AFTER the M8 was introduced.

 

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak, and remove all doubt." - A. Lincoln (also attributed to various others)

 

Well sorry, but you're confusing marketing hype with reality. The sensor is just one in a line: Kodak Image Sensor Solutions - Full Frame CCD

 

The microlenses are M8 specific, but that's all.

 

Sandy

[Richard.no]

Here's the thing - Kodak's web site doesn't list either an FF sensor or cropped sensor with more pixels than the current one (that I can find anyway). But it would be really unusual to get a sensor from another manufacturer with exactly the same color response.

 

But this starting to feel a bit odd - an M9 with the old 10.7 MP high-ISO-performance-one generation-behind sensor? Doesn't make sense to me. So maybe this is a yet-unreleased new-generation sensor from Kodak?

 

Sandy

 

Re-reading Borg's statement I find that he says "(...) that at least on pre-production Leica M9 the colour is different from Canon 5DMkII (...)"

 

Saying at least could mean that it has some other resemblance, like pixel count.

 

Anyway, to me this makes it totally obvious that the M9 is right around the corner. Adding to this, one retailer around here just dropped the price on the M8.2 with as much as 30 %, and they we're the ones with the lowest price to begin with.

[perb]

Sensor performance alone doesn't determine the end result. Most noise reduction is done in peripheral electronics and post processing, for example, the same Sony 6MP CCD sensor has been repeatedly used in many DSLRs from various manufacturers, the file qualities are vastly different across the board.

 

True, but if the information is not in the data gathered to begin with, nothing will be able to bring it out. Thus, sensor performance is fundamental to the final result.

 

Regards

Per

[ljclark]

True, but if the information is not in the data gathered to begin with, nothing will be able to bring it out. Thus, sensor performance is fundamental to the final result.

 

Hmmm....

 

Would that be saying something to the effect that a bad recording will still sound like crap, even with the best amplifier and speakers?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[photoarne]

 

What I want in the m9 is a DMR-like sensor in terms of color and DR with high ISO and full-frame.

 

Hey--I can dream

 

Hm, you dont mind the overly yellow/olive-ish greens and the turquois blues then? Or is there a profile available to correct these abberations in the DMR colour response? I'm talking RAW conversion C1 generic profile.