noah_addis Posted August 3, 2009 Share #81 Posted August 3, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) ... I just don't understand some people's mentality that professionals have a God given right to be paid to shoot something, and amateur photographers are taking away "their business"... This is getting a tad off topic, but it's an important issue in photography today. I'm a working pro, and I have no problem with amateur photographers, some of whom are definitely as capable or in some cases even more talented than some pros. It has nothing to do with what camera you use or what mode. Lots of pros I know use auto modes, and lots of amateurs (most of the amateur shooters on this forum I expect) use manual. I think where you'll find bitterness among pros is when amateurs sell photos or take assignments without getting paid a proper fee. While a pro will carefully calculate his or her cost of doing business and understands how much, say, a cover photo in a magazine is worth to the client, some amateurs will sell their work for very little or nothing, show off the published photo to their friends on flickr, then go back to their day jobs to earn a living. All this does is devalue photography and it hurts people who depend on photography for their livelihood. A photographer sold a cover photo to a major news magazine in the US for $30 recently. He was proud of having a tearsheet and very excited to be in the magazine. But what good is that tearsheet? Will it only get him more $30 cover photos? In that case he'll be out of business very soon if he tries to go pro. What happens when the photo editor goes to the higher-ups at the magazine next month wanting to commission a unique reportage from a major news story done by a reputable pro. Will the bean counters say "no, let's do more of those $30 covers"? What I'm saying is that a good photograph has value, no matter if it was taken by a pro or an amateur. But when amateurs give their work away for free or for tiny fees, they need to understand the effect that has on the photo industry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 3, 2009 Posted August 3, 2009 Hi noah_addis, Take a look here 9. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
exile Posted August 3, 2009 Share #82 Posted August 3, 2009 Somebody else mentioned that an amateur can be as bad as he wishes. I would say a pro can be as bad as he can sell Both may be at the same level again. I think we do not find those groups on this forum. Agree with all of that 100%. You specifically mentioned the area of wedding photography. I also agree that it is unethical to remove someone's business by actively offering to do it for free. However, I must admit that I have indeed shot a couple of friends weddings for free as the dedicated photographer, but this was only after intially refusing and explaining to them that it was a once-in-a-lifetime event and they should have it covered properly by a dedicated pro who deals with this kind of event week-in, week-out. I explained that I didn't have backup equipment, specialist lighting, or enough experience in this specific area to do as good a job as they deserved. On each occassion I was told that regardless of my decision, a professional phographer would not be engaged so that the couple could save money for the honeymoon, that photographs taken by guests would be the only record of the event, and that I could either bring my camera or not... On every occasion I decided to do the best I could for the happy couple, but I have to say that I did feel like I was "working an event" rather than truely enjoying a friend's wedding ceremony. However, I did receive multiple requests for paid financial work on the back of shooting my first wedding - all of which I turned down - so I think that we should also not underestimate the value of doing unpaid work to someone actively trying to work their way into the profession. I have also brought a camera along to weddings were a professional photog was present. In these situations, which I MUCH prefer, I am free to walk around and shoot candids of the guests. I usually have much longer than a working pro to form a connection with them as a fellow quest, and I think this gives a unique aspect to my shots that the wedding couples valued alongside their paid-for album of formal shots. I should also say that I just despise amateur photogs who let the pros do all the work in terms of location, lighting and pose, then pop up over their sholder with a longer lens and effectively rob them of all their hard work. IMHO this directly reduces the perceived value of pro wedding photogs as everyone sees two almost identical shots taken by a pro and amateur, but nobody really seems to appreciate that the pro has done all the work. And while I'm on the subject, the ability of pros to command the respect and engage the cooperation of the subjects is always severely underrated - there's nothing worse than twenty people posing for a group shot and everyone looking at a different camera! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted August 3, 2009 Share #83 Posted August 3, 2009 Hear hear, Noah. Pros are not paid for being pros. They are paid for doing a highly qualified job with apropriate equipment. Anybody who does that kind of job on that kind of level should demand to be paid what the picture is worth. OK, so he's probably not a 'name'. But the editor does as a rule print the picture considerably larger than the byline ... It's the picture, stupid! I am an 'amateur' but also a senior citizen who was once a picture editor. This was when the name of the game was Kodacrome, and not Photoshop, so there was no hiding the fact that some 'pros' could not hold their camera straight or focus it. Being a 'pro' means just that you take pictures for your living. It is not in itself a measure of competence. Competence should be paid for. The old man from the Age of Kodachrome II Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted August 3, 2009 Share #84 Posted August 3, 2009 Sorry Noah, I didn't see your response until after I posted. You are right - we are getting dangerously off topic. I'll stop after this post. The difference in a requirement for fees between amateurs and pros is obviously the difference between having a little extra cash to pay for camera gear, and pros who need to earn enough money to live and support families. You are 100% correct about talented amateurs underselling their best photos and devaluing photography as a profession - this is the real problem, not whether or not camera manufacturers give amateurs access to high image quality photo gear with full-auto function commensurate with their (more limited?) abilities. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 3, 2009 Share #85 Posted August 3, 2009 Ah c'mon Jaap my cousin sees to my teeth and he is a watch repairer Jeff Your problem, Jeff, not mine Come and see me when you can tell the time by your teeth and have to use your watch to chew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted August 3, 2009 Share #86 Posted August 3, 2009 Thanks Jaap - the coming event will be one year old when I start my time off. Well, big congratulations on your . . . erm. . . 9 month old baby - what a nice age Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted August 3, 2009 Share #87 Posted August 3, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Well, big congratulations on your . . . erm. . . 9 month old baby - what a nice age Thanks! I have to say the model in question was delivered to market in a timely fashion and has so far exceeded expectations on all quantifiable scales: excellent skintones, good definition, slightly mushy detail at the outset (but this was just a 'newbie' problem) and all-in-all no unexpected issues. We only saw the 'green line' problem once or twice, but the experts assure me that this is totally inline with other models of the same age. Very satisfied. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted August 3, 2009 Share #88 Posted August 3, 2009 Pros competing with willing amateurs who do it for free is as old as the "oldest profession" - and as current as bloggers vs. newspapers, or the beginner pilots who will practically pay for entry-level airline jobs in order to build hours of experience (witness co-pilot of last winter's turboprop crash in Buffalo whose salary was $16,800 per year.), or iStock. As to the M9, if Leica sees any value in using the 9/9/09 date, I still expect a pretty vague announcement. I just don't believe they are that far along in the development process. Even if it shares S2 technology (likely), that's just another reason to hold off - to see if any problems crop up with the S2 in daily use. Bet on the following (at most) or something similar: "We are working on a successor to the M8/M8.2. It will have a full 24x36 sensor with X-many megapixels. It will use the Maestro processor. It will have the traditional M form factor (no larger than the M8). It will be priced at no more than X,000 euros. A target delivery date has not yet been set." I.E. not much more than official confirmation of what is generally assumed already (and thus likely to have little effect on M8 sales immediately). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted August 3, 2009 Share #89 Posted August 3, 2009 {snipped}As to the M9, if Leica sees any value in using the 9/9/09 date, I still expect a pretty vague announcement. I just don't believe they are that far along in the development process. Even if it shares S2 technology (likely), that's just another reason to hold off - to see if any problems crop up with the S2 in daily use. {snipped} I don't know Andy; it's been nearly three years since the M8's release. I have to believe that even if Leica works twice as slowly as the majors, then the M9 could be very close to shipping. I don't think they've ever stopped developing the next M.... even in the wake of the S2. I also believe that if they're smart the S2 and M9 will share more than just a surface level collaboration... Leica has learned a lot about digital in the last 5 years, and there's nothing to say that the RD / pre-production of an M9 hasn't been farmed out over the interim. Anyway, we'll see Hope springs eternal, and I will get one when it's available if it meets my needs. I won't worry about initial bugs; Leica has shown they will make it right (but no green stripe, please). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo_Lorentzen Posted August 3, 2009 Share #90 Posted August 3, 2009 Im definitely interested in the 9 - if and when..... off-topic, that pro vs amateur discussion is also interesting. Personally I have done both commerical shooting and weddings, with the objective of paying my rent. When asked if I minded friends and family shooting at weddings I have always said "please do, while I am professional, it is wonderful to know that if I do manage to miss a important image, chances are uncle bob got it." thankfully I never had to rely on uncle bob. As for commercial jobs, being a professional involves delivering also when it rains, I have seen a couple of happy weekend shooters going taking a paid flight for a weeks free vacation shooting the resort. nothing wrong with that, and the pictures is often great, but not always, the difference is if I F**** up a series of images, well then I don't pay rent. I have also had to convince a company that shooting with a 120 mf camera was going to be ok.. simply because the last guy managed to shoot 10 rolls of blurred poorly exposed images with a hassleblad, they wanted 4x5 chromes of moving bicycles this time around because the hassleblad was "just not good enough" :-) so seriously professionals screw up also. I bagged the client by promising them great images or no pay and shot the job on my F4 (yes that was pre digital and yes I got paid). . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandokan Posted August 4, 2009 Share #91 Posted August 4, 2009 Ooh - what a lovely birthday present the M9 will be :-) As for "amateur vs professional" - how many people have been asked to "fix a computer, because you know all about it because you have a big one and send emails ...?" That is also taking money away from professionals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MP3 Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share #92 Posted August 5, 2009 Is it technically viable for Solms to pull out a new "Visoflex-like" housing so all existing R glasses can be used on the 36x24 M9 ? This is just what I'm wondering, no solid clue on that excepr Daniel Stefan stated in recent meeting they are working on a solution for R glasses users. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 5, 2009 Share #93 Posted August 5, 2009 No, the register on R lenses is too long. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaay Posted August 5, 2009 Share #94 Posted August 5, 2009 As i was leaving R G Lewis in London yesterday they said they'd see me later in the year for the M9. I turned round and asked if they knew anymore and was told they knew no specs - not even if it was full frame - and that Leica was still 'officially' denying it. I can not believe it would be available to buy this year, maybe to preorder. Who knows! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernmelder Posted August 5, 2009 Share #95 Posted August 5, 2009 This whole information policy - or at least it looks like not to be one - is so annoying. I don't get it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted August 5, 2009 Share #96 Posted August 5, 2009 No, the register on R lenses is too long. It's actually the register on the Visoflex that is too long for the R lenses, but the point holds. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adli Posted August 5, 2009 Share #97 Posted August 5, 2009 If they announce the M9, vague or not, can we then please have an M9 subforum, so that this forum is not filled up with posts about "I've heard this" and "I want that" with respect to the M9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted August 5, 2009 Share #98 Posted August 5, 2009 If they announce the M9, vague or not, can we then please have an M9 subforum, so that this forum is not filled up with posts about "I've heard this" and "I want that" with respect to the M9 Yes. Absolutely. Can we also have separate M3, M2, M4, M4-P, M5, M6, M6TTL and M7 fora? Or, we could just rename this one "Digital M" and keep all the lunacy in one place... Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eudemian Posted August 5, 2009 Share #99 Posted August 5, 2009 How would we distinguish between inmates and visitors, Bill? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted August 6, 2009 Share #100 Posted August 6, 2009 Thanks! I have to say the model in question was delivered to market in a timely fashion and has so far exceeded expectations on all quantifiable scales: excellent skintones, good definition, slightly mushy detail at the outset (but this was just a 'newbie' problem) and all-in-all no unexpected issues. We only saw the 'green line' problem once or twice, but the experts assure me that this is totally inline with other models of the same age. Very satisfied. ROFL - Mind you, it would be disappointing if you weren't entirely satisfied at this stage, wait until the model in question is sixteen, when, if a boy, he will be gauche, gangly and spotty, and probably wearing the waist band of his trousers slightly below the bottom of his boxers . . . and if a girl, having unsuitable relationships with a gauche, gangly, spotty and baggy trousered boy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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