jaapv Posted July 31, 2009 Share #161 Posted July 31, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I was really worried before I read that article. Now I'm terrified. Seriously this seems like a scramble, the very worst sort of PR disaster that Leica have on their hands now. Defending a $22k+ price-tag by promising to include Adobe Lightroom? Oh brother. I'm really not qualified to comment - I'm sure a lot of people will point this out - I have never intended to buy (or could afford) or had anything but an academic interest in the S2, and have simply hoped that it'll be the paradigm-shifting camera that Leica promised and sell really well. My personal concerns were always that it was a hubris project, built to show the world what the technicians and engineers at Leica were really capable of, if they were freed from the bounds of legacy systems, and not a really viable financial project. But I had no idea, and still have none, of how well this will actually sell. My hope is that Leica have looked at all the options, weighed the costs and returns and that this is a realistic price. But that interview - the same day as the release of the pricelist - seriously scared the cr@p out of me. Is that not overreacting a bit, Mani? It is a very bare-bones statement, with a few facts thrown in and nothing more, hardly an article. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 31, 2009 Posted July 31, 2009 Hi jaapv, Take a look here S2 available in October / starting price of £15,996. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
SJP Posted July 31, 2009 Share #162 Posted July 31, 2009 Moving about 1000 of these things per year world wide sounds wholly reasonable to me as an estimate. That is only about 7% of the M8 no. of units per year. If we take the affluent part of the world population to be 1E9 or so then that is 1 S2 per million. So 16 units per year for the NL. About 8-12 units to the camera rental business 4-8 units for the pro. and serious amateurs. Sounds about right to me. The price is pretty steep but in the same sort of ballpark as a Ducati or Harley Davidson, a factor 10 or more less than a sailing yacht or a sportscar. For those that can afford such toys the choice is between having money in the bank or in stock or buying something you are passionate about. If I was interested in a DSLR the choice would not be very difficult. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted July 31, 2009 Share #163 Posted July 31, 2009 Seriously, the price premium is not that relevant if you want the best quality and it suits your needs. Yes, but it's not going to be the best quality for long - the sensor is essentially off-the-shelf; anyone can buy the same technology, and the S2 has a smaller sensor than the other MF players. So once they update their backs to the same generation of sensor, they win, just because they have more sensor area. The S2 will easily outperform any 35mm FF solution, but a bigger sensored MF solution can easily outperform it in turn. Given the pricing, that puts the S2 is a narrow niche. I'll say again what I've said on other threads re the S2 - it's not impossible for it to be a success, but it will take perfect execution from Leica, 100% reliability, etc, etc. And the pricing, especially the "platinum service" doesn't feel like perfect execution - I agree with other posters that at the price, and given the M8's record, asking pros to pay for "platinum service" is a marketing blunder of the first order. Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 31, 2009 Share #164 Posted July 31, 2009 Anyway, I'm going to come down from the stratosphere and back to the mundane M9 in another forum If Leica can deliver the price and specifications that are now taking form, the whole discussion of the S2 will be moot. The camera that will carry the company will be, as always in the past, the M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 31, 2009 Share #165 Posted July 31, 2009 Is that not a bit overreacting, Mani? It is a very bare-bones statement, with a few facts trown in and nothing more, hardly an article. Yes - you're probably right. I'm seriously not trying to score points here, but I thought that the tone of the statement was seriously defensive and not what you'd expect on the day that should've been triumphant. Pascal is also right - but to be fair I wasn't quoting I was characterising or even parodying the statement. This part was what I referred to: "Other features of the S2 he felt justified the $22,995 price tag include the camera's ability to convert RAW (DNG) images instantly into JPEGs in the camera; a full version of Adobe Lightroom that will ship with the camera; and new tethered shooting software which will allow you to shoot images right into Lightroom." Anyway, I'm hoping I'm wrong - it's probably all over-reaction - but there are many companies and many technologies that have been superior to their competition, but have nevertheless made tragic business decisions and disappeared. And this was just my worry when I saw this rather lame defense from Leica. Anyway, come on guys prove me wrong. I've really only started really loving my M8 this month - purely selfishly I want this darn company to always be around! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted July 31, 2009 Share #166 Posted July 31, 2009 a sensor size slightly largen than 35mm FF could appeal to those FF canikon/sony users who do not need high tech autofocus with many points, 5-8 fps, live view, video and all that stuff which modern cameras feature, particularly if the lenses are excellent (which i do expect from leica). hardcore MF users are not attracted anyway because there is just no replacement for high megapixel count and sensor real estate. so we have a low tech slightly oversized FF sensor camera at an MF price point. but lightroom comes with it---))))seems leica is making fun of themselves. impressive product placement and PR strategies. well, i shall be waiting for the croc leather version anyway. or until phaseone buys leica and streamlines the company and its products. peter I don't care what kool aid Earhardt is talking. They are trying to compete in a the medium format market with a smaller sensor an requiring buyers to buy into a whole system with a minimum cost of $30,000 for camera and one lens. On top of that they insult us all by saying that if we spend a little more money we will get excellent service. WTF. That is one of the more arrogant things I have ever heard a company market. What, $30,000 isn't enough to get good service. Sometimes in life people get too secluded and form ideas based on their own reality that don't fly in the world where other people live. Leica will sell some cameras. But 1 year from now every other company will have either surpassed or comes so close to their specs that they pricing will look even more ridiculous. The digital age is not the film age. Obsolescents is just around the corner and any company that tries to sell a 5 year body in a 3 year world is going to get lost if they price their 5 year body as if it is a lifetime investment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamey Posted July 31, 2009 Share #167 Posted July 31, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I stated some time ago the price of Leica's new DSLR (R10) was going to be 20.000+, most made funny remarks to my statement, then I thought hey this is to much for a 35mm DSLR however the specs I was getting was more to an MF system, I was right and I posted this on this forum (check search). I stated the PanaLeica DIGILUX DSLR 4 was a dud or a monstrosity an M body with an R lens. What's happened to that model. I canned the M8 and to my surprise people bought it, so who knows the S2 might be a huge seller after all Leica devotee's will buy anything as long it has that red logo and Leica knows it. So you never know! however in the mean time I will play with my film cameras and plastic toy (G9) Some of my Abbreviations for Leica M = Money Leica R = Redundant. Leica S = Swan-song! It's nice to laugh, Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted July 31, 2009 Share #168 Posted July 31, 2009 Perhaps it is a case of bad news first (the pricing) giving everyone time to get over it followed by good news (the performance). Clever marketing? maybe. I was not surprised at the price but I did think that it would include a very good service package which evidently it does not, that is extra. But maybe amateur buyers dont need that. So adding it all up it does seem quite expensive. Over on getdpi there is a pdf that was sent out to dealers 'talking points' so Leica are obviously expecting some flack. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 31, 2009 Share #169 Posted July 31, 2009 It is not just a service program, it is an extended guarantee as well: Garantieverlängerung auf 24 Monate, Austausch bei Auftreten eines Defektes innerhalb der ersten drei Monate nach Kaufdatum* sowie 30% Rabatt auf eine ggf. anfallende Reparatur*. Weiter bietet Leica darüber hinaus einen "Platinum-Service", welcher einen kostenfreien, rund-um-die-Uhr zur Verfügung stehenden Leihservice* für die Dauer der Reparatur sowie die kostenfreie Wartung* inkl. einmaligem Austausch des Verschlusses beinhaltet. (*)Genaue Bedingungen liegen uns noch nicht vor. source: Martin Meister Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted July 31, 2009 Share #170 Posted July 31, 2009 How do you now that the 4000 pixel cameras system has the same resolution as a downsampled image?Your 4000 pixel camera will have different optics, and smaller pixel size. Compare systems and nothing else. I’m not sure what this comparison was intended to demonstrate, but for what it’s worth: If you take, say, a picture taken with a 24 MP camera and scale it down to 12 MP, it will still show vastly more detail than a picture taken with a true 12 MP camera. Moreover, if you take the downsampled image, scale it back to 24 MP, and sharpen, the loss of detail compared to the original 24 MP image will be far less dramatic than one might expect. Of course, this doesn’t prove that 12 MP cameras would deliver images comparable to those of 24 MP cameras – quite the opposite really. It only goes to show that an X MP image can contain much more information than any X MP camera could provide – and that conversely an image with somewhat less than X MP might be sufficient to contain the detail an X MP camera does capture. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted July 31, 2009 Share #171 Posted July 31, 2009 I’m not sure what this comparison was intended to demonstrate, but for what it’s worth: If you take, say, a picture taken with a 24 MP camera and scale it down to 12 MP, it will still show vastly more detail than a picture taken with a true 12 MP camera. Moreover, if you take the downsampled image, scale it back to 24 MP, and sharpen, the loss of detail compared to the original 24 MP image will be far less dramatic than one might expect. Of course, this doesn’t prove that 12 MP cameras would deliver images comparable to those of 24 MP cameras – quite the opposite really. It only goes to show that an X MP image can contain much more information than any X MP camera could provide – and that conversely an image with somewhat less than X MP might be sufficient to contain the detail an X MP camera does capture. Also, unless you're scaling in the raw bayer sensor space, you might as well not bother....scaling in a demosaiced space is not the same. Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 31, 2009 Share #172 Posted July 31, 2009 Ok, folks please read the following PDN article where Christian Erhardt addresses the S2 pricing (Leica's Erhardt Addresses Criticism Over S2's Hefty Price Tag) Cheers, There is this summary of the S2, floating around, also (Emailed to me) S2 Talking Points.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted July 31, 2009 Share #173 Posted July 31, 2009 There is this summary of the S2, floating around, also (Emailed to me) [ATTACH]154691[/ATTACH] creating the fastest large format digital solution Am I reading it wrong, Andy? It's now coffee all over my desk. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted July 31, 2009 Share #174 Posted July 31, 2009 Time for a new poll: Who will purchase an S2? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted July 31, 2009 Share #175 Posted July 31, 2009 Erhardt's quoting of LR included probably was aimed not to evidence a value, but to make it clear that the "Phase One former agreement" issue has been solved with the decison to embrace DNG as the std. RAW format for S2. I haven't idea of how this will be perceived by the Pros who represent Leca target for this camera (a plus being DNG a standard ? A minus in respect to present MF RAW formats ?). As for prices... I think that in the Pro market there is a very different perception of published pricelists than in the amateur/consumer market... as other have said, probably this could be a camera mainly to be rented: in this case, the marketing/commercial actions of Leica ought to be adressed to the renting companies, with some specific program to allow them to have S2 system on their "rent list" at NET RATES sufficiently attractive for Pros: this is a completely different biz from selling your gear through a usual dealer channel (in the Auto sector this is overwhelming... almost no relation between how a certain car is sold through dealers or is sold to Avis/Hertz/GE Finance or so). Moreover... targeting the rental channel would mean also that the NUMBER of pro users that put their hands in the S2 COULD be much higher...imagine, as an initial mktg action, 100 S2 kits sold to 100 renters in 50-70 important cities worldwide... this in less than one year could bring to, say, at least 2000-3000 users that WILL HAVE SOME FEEDBACK to report : if this would be the scenario, the first 6-9 months after the delivery will be absolutely critical for Leica: can be that pros are not so keen to exchange impressions on forums, but surely if 1-2-50... of them should suffer some problem when use the system for a studio or outdoor assignement, they simply will not rent it anymore, and in short time the system will be ignored/forgotten/burn out of the market. On the contrary, if it proves good and acquires its share, this could be a golden opportunity for Leica, to be capitalized with care also into its other product lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 31, 2009 Share #176 Posted July 31, 2009 I do know that for instance Calumet has shown real interest and is looking into the rental options. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted July 31, 2009 Share #177 Posted July 31, 2009 A while back Teamwork said they might be interested too. We will have to wait and see which rental houses decide to carry it, but that could be an important link in the chain. Hopefully Leica will be pushing for this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted July 31, 2009 Share #178 Posted July 31, 2009 ... If you take, say, a picture taken with a 24 MP camera and scale it down to 12 MP, it will still show vastly more detail than a picture taken with a true 12 MP camera. How so? I think some of the enthusiasm for MF was before 35mm cameras got into the 21-24 megapixel range. I'm not saying that the S2 won't be capable of better images than top line 35mm DSLRs. I'm saying that the differences may not be that significant in most applications and those differences will narrow more as 35mm DSLRs improve further. Thus undermining the value of an S2 as a long term investment. But I also think that in many cases it will be easier to "get the shot" with a faster 35mm DSLR than with an S2. And if you only have a few lenses to choose from for the S2, then you might have to use a 35mm DSLR for some photos no matter what. While the S2 may have 7 lenses before long, I pretty much see the ideal role of the S2 limited to fashion, beauty, and portrait type photography. High end architectural shooters are going to use a specialized w/a camera solution. (Arca, Linhof, Cambo, Alpa.) And product and food photographers are going to need swings and tilts on various focal lengths so they'll use small view cameras. (Maybe the Hasselblad tilt shift adapter will have a place for some.) And these markets are clamoring for a digital back that has live view and a state of the art LCD. So once that becomes available, few would choose an S2 for these applications. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonjegleave@mac.com Posted July 31, 2009 Share #179 Posted July 31, 2009 Firstly I would like to say that I am currently looking for a digital MF system and as a Leica owner (R6.2 R9 +DMR as well as M8) I am very interested in the S2 to replace my old Rollei SL66se (which I love but technology moves on). The prices quoted appear to me to be in line with other MF cameras and so are no discouragement to my purchase. However, what concerns me is: 1. The sensor size is not that much bigger than a FF 35mm, while phase one and hasseblad sensors are bigger. This concerns me as I once made a comparison between my Leica R6 and my Rollei Sl66 for a series of landscapes (my hobby area). All the prints from the Rollei were far superior. So I am thinking the same issue will apply to sensors. The larger sensors will still produce better results even if the Leica lenses are brilliant. 2. The fact that Leica has discontinued the R series makes me wonder whether i would need to consider a new system in a few years ( I have a load of R lenses which as far as I am concerned are now pretty useless). For me I have to admit this is not an issue of money (sorry folks wealthy amateur here) but rather that I grow to love my camera gear (I actually still have all the cameras and lenses that I have bought over the last 30 years) and I find it very disappointing to not be able to continue to use them. This is where Hasselblad wins hands down with continuity. 3. I recently acquired a sony A900 with Zeiss lenses and I have directly compared to Leica R9DMR and I have to say that the results are better with the Sony. In particular chromatic aberation, which I guess shows that optics technology has improved. So Zeiss on Hasselblad sounds pretty appealing at present. Anyway I do like the portability of the S2 and look forward to seeing some detailed spec and reviews before making my choice. 3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted July 31, 2009 Share #180 Posted July 31, 2009 ... So Zeiss on Hasselblad sounds pretty appealing at present.. FYI, Hasselblad discontinued all models prior to their new H3DII system. The new system is a closed one, which means it can only be used with lenses made for it. And those come from Fuji. Nothing wrong with that, just not the Zeiss lenses it seems you'd like to use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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