sdai Posted August 4, 2009 Share #341 Posted August 4, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just plastic things Simon. Warn me when Breguet watches, Jaeger Lecoultre clocks, Wilson Audio speakers, Lalique glass or Riva yachts are assembled in China. These are really apples to oranges, LCT. You better ask me to warn you when Pétrus and Romanée Conti are brewed or bottled in China ... the point is to adopt a modern industrial approach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 4, 2009 Posted August 4, 2009 Hi sdai, Take a look here S2 available in October / starting price of £15,996. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest malland Posted August 4, 2009 Share #342 Posted August 4, 2009 Not necessarily made better, but I for one don't mind spending more on an item in the knowledge that the person making it (or growing it, or cooking it) has received a good salary in the process.I totally fail to see why we who are rich enough to own and enjoy such luxury products should want them to be made cheaper so that we can share even less of our affluence with others in this world. It is ugly greed pure and simple. A good salary in a low-wage country obviously is much lower than it is in Germany, but the cost of living in such countries is also obviously much lower. One can't automatically assume that all workers in low-wage countries are paid unfairly or are not paid well in the light of local conditions. —Mitch/Potomac, MD Bangkok Hysteria©: Book Project Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted August 4, 2009 Share #343 Posted August 4, 2009 Not necessarily made better, but I for one don't mind spending more on an item in the knowledge that the person making it (or growing it, or cooking it) has received a good salary in the process.I totally fail to see why we who are rich enough to own and enjoy such luxury products should want them to be made cheaper so that we can share even less of our affluence with others in this world. It is ugly greed pure and simple. Funny. Last time I was in Japan it didn't feel like a developing country to me. And like Mitch says the high end factory jobs aren't exactly kids out on garbage heap burning transistors down in order to make D300's. It's a global economy now whether we like it or not. All I know is whoever assembled my first M8 was maybe just a bit too craft like. Even the replacement took three trys to get the framelines from sticking. Both of my bodies still freeze from time to time (I had to have two because one was back for service so often). My Nikon D3, assembled by poor Japanese robots resembling humans who are being constantly cat-o-nine tailed by their overlords has had nary a sniffle from day one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted August 4, 2009 Share #344 Posted August 4, 2009 BTW I would love an S2 but way over priced for me (though one wY to look at it is it's only a couple thousand rolls of film). I'm more in the market for the M9 anyway. Which alas will have to wait for me probably until used ones hit the market as I need to sink about $10k into my teeth. Ones health is more important than any camera though. Unfortunately it's taken me awhile to learn that lesson. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 4, 2009 Share #345 Posted August 4, 2009 Just plastic things Simon. Warn me when Breguet watches, Jaeger Lecoultre clocks, Wilson Audio speakers, Lalique glass or Riva yachts are assembled in China. You probably won't know. That luxury item may be 'Made in China' | Marketplace From American Public Media Chinese companies may be leading the world in wind generation technology, lithium battery technology, photovoltaic technology, and quite a few other things that matter more than watches and yachts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted August 4, 2009 Share #346 Posted August 4, 2009 My Musical Fidelity (one of the top 4 British HiFI makers) K550 monobloc power amplifiers are made in Taiwan. I believe that ETA-Valjoux, whose 2892 and 7750 movements are used in many top watches (Rolex, Girrard-Perregaux, Bell & Ross, Breitling etc) now have factories in China, where they are making many parts for these watches. As long as the design and quality control is to German standards, I would not be too worried about where the camera comes from. I do not wake up up nights worrying that some of the metal components in my M8 were machined in Portugal. Of late Leica's QC for both lenses, cameras and repairs has not be up to previous standards. Maybe they could learn from the far east rather than the other way round. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 4, 2009 Share #347 Posted August 4, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) These are really apples to oranges, LCT... We disagree on this Simon. I don't see basic differences between Riva, Breguet and Leica. Both need the best staff available and the latter are not paid in yuans so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted August 4, 2009 Share #348 Posted August 4, 2009 My Nikon D3, assembled by poor Japanese robots resembling humans who are being constantly cat-o-nine tailed by their overlords... Well obviously that's not my point at all. I buy plenty of things made in China or Japan. I don't have any problem with goods made in these countries. My problem is (wealthy, usually western) people who advocate that manufacture be taken away from high-wage countries and farmed to low-wage ones. They are often people who have much but want more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 4, 2009 Share #349 Posted August 4, 2009 My Musical Fidelity (one of the top 4 British HiFI makers) K550 monobloc power amplifiers are made in Taiwan.... My Marantz ones as well i guess but as good as it may be otherwise, an MF amp is not an Audio Research or a Nagra. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted August 4, 2009 Share #350 Posted August 4, 2009 My Marantz ones as well i guess but as good as it may be otherwise, an MF amp is not an Audio Research or a Nagra. I agree. Being a British design and by someone (Anthony Michaelson) who is also a professional musician, a solo clarinetist - MF are rather better ;-}} After you have had 650 watts RMS/channel, everything else seems a bit underpowered. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 4, 2009 Share #351 Posted August 4, 2009 I agree. Being a British design and by someone (Anthony Michaelson) who is also a professional musician, a solo clarinetist - MF are rather better ;-}} After you have had 650 watts RMS/channel, everything else seems a bit underpowered... Not really the same league Wilson. Don't remember current prices but one AR amp that powerful may sell for 5 to 10 times more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted August 4, 2009 Share #352 Posted August 4, 2009 ETA (Swatch) has a fab in China for the regional market (cheap watches) - all other movements (and their components) are made in Switzerland. Rolex is making nearly all components by itself (vertical integrated production) also in Switzerland (there is no single screw made in China in those watches). Yes even the plastic Swatches are made entirely in Switzerland, more efficient than anywhere else on this planet. Why? long-sighted, clever management by Mr. Hayek (who wasn't even born in Switzerland and therefore believed in Swiss skills when no Swiss did) and several hundred years of experience. Many luxury-Hifi-components are made in small-numbers with standard-components and neither real high-tech nor a good example for quality production. Speaker cabinets are a better example of craftsmenship, the best of them are made in Denmark and Germany because these people are trained (for several years) craftsmen. It not only handmade for expensive small-serial-production, but also using sophisticated machines for efficient large-scale-production. The S2-sensor is made in USA, the main processor and the shutter is made in Japan (while many machines to manufacture these components will come from Germany. Besides final assembly, most of the optical and mechanical parts will be Made in Germany. The lenses are nearly entirely from there. Besides some ICs (and the LCD-display) all the S2-components come from high-wage-countries, highly-skilled workers, engineering and craftsmenship. Ultra-high-quality electronics are manufactured in Germany for the oil industry, aerospace, military... Many high-end machines for electronic production/assembly are from Germany as well as components. Only consumer-electronics (and the incorporated components like TFTs) are rare. I have opened many electronic devices (even scanners by japanese manufacturers several times as expensive as an M8) and only a few of them looked as well as the pictures shown here of the M8. My knowledge of circuitry... is limited (I always preferred mechanics ;-) but despite using ordinary DSPs instead of custom designed processor it just looked like a D3/1ds to me (well, they had to crush the same amount of electronics in a small body). But the S2 is a different beast anyway, with a custom ASIC and not made by Jenoptik anymore. Most Japanese workers are well-paid, that's why Nikon (and others) replace them with cheap slave-labour in Thailand (150$/month) or China (<100$/month). It's convenient, it's simple... and short-sighted. Of course cost of living is much lower in these low-wage countries, but the life quality is still disastrous, many tenthousand workers die every year in chinese fabs (or little later by health issues caused by working in them). WE are responsible, because it's our money and technology that is brought to these countries. Japan was basically one of the last countries which was able to profit of global economy on a wide scale (through all society) - now it's just about investing somewhere where it's cheap and before any real socological impact besides studied upper-class people in the cities occurs, the money and profits are taken away again, I think this is called "coporate raiders" in English? It's not inevitable, it's just stupid and inhuman (you're Mexican, so I don't have to pay you as well for the same work and I'll take the profit...). All the modern production methods and automation are developed in high-wage countries, where long-sighted thinking still makes sense (because of strict regulations, because of trained workers). All the beautiful Li-Io-batteries (the machines, the materials...) were developed in high-wage-countries and then transferred to countries with slave labour for production, barely any environmental laws and lot's of corruption. And when there is no major-production of those batteries in high-wage-countries anymore, then there will be barely any technological progress, either. Because technological progress besides pure research needs the communication with production and skilled workers. Many examples of "high-quality-luxury-items" made in China were mentioned. Bags, leather products... They're not quality, they're manufactured like 100 years ago - except for more complicated techniques that need years of training - this knowledge slowly dies out! Have you ever shown a master-tailor or shoe-maker a Adidas-shoe(200$), or Hugo-Boss-suit (2000$)? They usually don't know if they should laugh or cry... It's pretty much the same with Leica-lenses, they incorporate technologies, inconvenient design decisions and innovation which have become nearly unknown in the photographic industry! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
felipe-m Posted August 4, 2009 Share #353 Posted August 4, 2009 Well said georg, people in rich countries always want to have it all nice and cheap, but seldom want to be reminded of what those saved bucks in the pocket really mean globally. Cheap goods, after a long and complicated chain of socio-economic and political reasons, usually do mean cheap labour in developing countries, where workers often get barely enough to survive. The cost of living there is surely lower. But how many here would trade their quality of life for theirs? Volunteers, anyone? And fair enough, everybody wants and may deserve a nice life, but let's not pretend that our cheap goods are not linked with people elsewhere living in or close to poverty and with limited if any human rights, and that if we do buy, we help to keep it the way it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 4, 2009 Share #354 Posted August 4, 2009 I agree fully, but how to solve this? Judging by the screams on this and other forums whenever Leica announces a price, it is a road producers are forced to take by consumer pressure. A Fair Trade label for cameras?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 4, 2009 Share #355 Posted August 4, 2009 Bahhhhh! I hear a bunch of lamb. With jackals yapping at the outskirts of the flock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted August 4, 2009 Share #356 Posted August 4, 2009 I think that this thread has now gone completely off topic, but in the light of the simplistic arguments made in posts no. 352 and 353, which are completely political and at odds with the most basic economics of "comparative advantage" and, even politically don't make much sense: they essentially state "we don't want to buy goods produced in low because workers there are exploited", ignoring completely that that is how economic development takes place: as more and more relatively labor intensive production moves from high-wage to low-wage countries the cost of labor in the latter is bid up as those countries undergo industrial development. This is what happened in Japan and subsequently in Korea and Taiwan. Today Japan is as high a wage country as Germany but before 1964, the year of the Tokyo Olympics, Japan was a low-wage country well known for producing "shoddy goods". But this discussion doesn't belong on this forum... —Mitch/Potomac, MD Wild Beasts of Botswana Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
felipe-m Posted August 4, 2009 Share #357 Posted August 4, 2009 My point was to stress that if people want buy those cheap goods, fine, it's a free personal decision, but be aware of what it means and accept the responsibility. ... this thread has now gone completely off topic ... But this discussion doesn't belong on this forum... And this is most certainly not off topic. A political point it is, but very much part of how the price of the S2 may have been set. Uncomfortable probably, but not inappropriate for a thread about pricing differences... ... but in the light of the simplistic arguments made in posts no. 352 and 353, which are completely political and at odds with the most basic economics of "comparative advantage" and, even politically don't make much sense ... This is what happened in Japan and subsequently in Korea and Taiwan. 3 examples where it worked, many, many more where it didn't. And a very week socio-economic argument anyway. Some specific development took place that way, sure, but doesn't mean it is the best way: That "comparative advantage" concept, which I assume you master, does not need to include degradation of the human condition to be effective, or does it? Al lot of economic development also benefited from open or disguised slavery, repression, war, extreme poverty, etc, etc. That's ok as well? End always justify the means? Especially if it makes your goods cheap? My arguments are most certainly not at odds with the economic principles your very freely cite, but if they were, I would rather have it that way rather than being at odds with human rights. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted August 4, 2009 Share #358 Posted August 4, 2009 ...Al lot of economic development also benefited from open or disguised slavery, repression, war, extreme poverty, etc, etc. That's ok as well? End always justify the means? Especially if it makes your goods cheap?...This is certainly irrelevant to a discussion of the cost of the S2. No need to assume that Leica would be involved in any of these things by having production in Thailand or China. Certainly working conditions are excellent at the Nikon plant in Thailand. —Mitch/Potomac, MD Bangkok Hysteria©: Book Project Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted August 4, 2009 Share #359 Posted August 4, 2009 I think it's a very relevant discussion. It's true that "Made in germany" might not mean as much as it once did to Westerners (although it still means something to me) But, I think MIG is still well respected by the emerging Asian Market. Leica M does very well in Japan and part of the success could very well be attributed to where it is made. There is the old cliche that "an expert is somebody from out of town." Is it possible, that from some Eastern Perspective it might be considered exotic to have a camera system built in Germany? I don't know? But it's possible....From what I understand, Linhof is doing very well in China. There is a massive transfer of wealth taking place between the West and Asia at the moment.... It's possible that Leica could sell more of their cameras to the Far East than to the West within the not-too-distant future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 4, 2009 Share #360 Posted August 4, 2009 I think the German and Swiss workers are being exploited. Imagine going to work all day and doing nothing but painting lines on a lens barrel. Or spending 40 hours a week straining through a loupe just so they can insert some parts into an expensive watch for some rich guy. How mind numbing just because they needed money to survive. How did society get to the point where it abused people in such a way? Where is the fulfillment in such jobs? Can't machines be designed to do this drudgery and we can retrain the workers to use their brains? Workers should rise up and revolt! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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