S2 available in October / starting price of £15,996

[lxlim]

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I'm not sure what you are getting at. If an M8 and Canon serve your clients' needs, then why would you want an S2? As for the "exotic" lenses that have yet to be released. I don't see them as especially exotic, but they are sure to be priced high. They compare in 35mm format to a 20mm, a 24 TS, a slow 24-72 zoom, and a fairly slow 280mm.

 

The problem with the cost is not that you can't justify it over 15 years. It is that it will be surpassed by much less expensive options long before that. At one time a 6 megapixel Kodak DSLR cost $30,000. That got surpassed even by the first cheap Canon Digital Rebel years ago. And a $30,000 Phase One scanning back was also a viable choice for some things. Not today. When you buy an S2 or any MF system, you give up speed, versatility, and affordability in the pursuit of a bit more resolution - Only if the camera is accurately focused and used in situations that will produce minimum motion blur and maximum sharpness. And the S2 is not very versatile with just 4 lenses offered. That may or may not be a reasonable trade-off now. As the resolution of 35mm increases, there may be little reason to use a 37megapixel S2.

 

Here's a test that everyone can make before buying an S2. Once some full res samples are released, print them to a fairly large size, say 16x20. Then scale the files to half size and reprint them and see how much detail you lose.

 

Correction for image below - it was 5616 pixels high not wide. (Then scaled to 4000 pixels high and back to 5616 high.) This is a resolution/file size comparison test, not a test of maximum possible camera resolution.

 

Thanks, you are right I need to clarify. The M8 is excellent except there is no zoom in the 24-70 range. Canon's are for most events except the mainstay of my business.

 

As a business, I continue to sell my works to my clients(schools and alumni) many years after the events. I create photo montages for special events for schools and universities.

 

I need a camera that has much higher image quality than I need now and a very robust body to last 10 years. That way the look of the images is consistent for the next 10 years. So an image created in 2010 will essentially be similar in quality to one taken in 2020. The key idea is to provide the highest standard to my clients. My clients will refresh their galleries every few years, that way my images will look consistent.

 

The "exotic" lenses are as you mentioned not really exotic. Sorry about that. My target lens would be the 30-90f3.5 and I would not consider that a slow lens if it performs well wide open. My canon 24-70 is really only consistently good at f8 and above for all focal lengths. My Leica 35-70f4 mounted on the canon performs better at f4.5. That lens range makes 80% of my profits.

 

My clients' needs is likely to double their imaging standard every 6 years(I have been dealing with them for 14 years), so having MF quality in a couple of years makes sense to me.

 

At any rate, I will make my decision in 2011. Lets see who is left for me to deal with. Maybe it will be a Nikon D3X

[andybarton]

 

While the S2 may have 7 lenses before long, I pretty much see the ideal role of the S2 limited to fashion, beauty, and portrait type photography.

 

Isn't that exactly the market that this is to be pitched at? Studio work?

[lct]

There is this summary of the S2, floating around, also (Emailed to me)

[ATTACH]154691[/ATTACH]

...A built-in front filter protects the lens from moisture...

Great to get ghost images with studio lights that. Another red nose a la M8?

[sdai]

Isn't that exactly the market that this is to be pitched at? Studio work?

 

It's funny when you see them pitching weather sealing as a no.1 or maybe no.2 selling point for a studio camera ... these must be very specialized studios having a lot of rain or wet stuff going on.

 

First, they beat the crap out of medium format, which is not enough ... not they take on large format. LOL

[luigi bertolotti]

I do know that for instance Calumet has shown real interest and is looking into the rental options.

 

I confess that, having NO CAPABILITY AT ALL (and no logic anyway) to buy S2, the prospected capability to have it for rent... ... I do not think rental companies require you are a Pro, right ? There are many people that rent, say, a Ferrari for once a week-end in the life, after all...

[Leica Insider]

There is this summary of the S2, floating around, also (Emailed to me)

 

[ATTACH]154691[/ATTACH]

 

Andy, are you under NDA?

 

I am not sure that this was meant to be published but I believe that people should read it. If they can be objective they will have to admit that the S2 is breaking new grounds and the positioning is different from existing MF systems.

 

The systems was developed together with Fashion and Advertising Professionals and it will give them a superior tool for certain applications than what they had so far. I am saying certain applications, not all of them and obviously the 10 - 15 users that keep complaining about the pricing are not understanding those benefits. Hopefully they will when specs are published.

 

I am sure that Erhardt was in no position to give out more details when he gave the PDN interview but it will not take months, like people are suggesting in this forum, before Leica publishes Specs but a matter of a few weeks.

 

I am stunned how only a few people here really try to understand the positioning of the camera whilst most just say that the price is too high w/o even knowing the specs of the camera or the performance of the lenses. You will be amazed how good those lenses are and there will be no Fuji/Mamiya lens that is as good. Higher Quality = Higher Price? Does that make sense?

 

Leica is not trying to take over the MF market, they are adding a new dimension to it. One that is so appealing that it will not only bring professionals to buy the camera but also amateurs that where intimidated by the complexity of MF systems in the past. The S2 is so easy to use that even an amateur can shoot with it, no problem.

 

And yes it is shocking these days but there are amateurs that don't mind spending that kind of money when it takes them onto a new quality level with a camera they feel comfortable handling.

[sdai]

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I am stunned how only a few people here really try to understand the positioning of the camera whilst most just say that the price is too high w/o even knowing the specs of the camera or the performance of the lenses. You will be amazed how good those lenses are and there will be no Fuji/Mamiya lens that is as good. Higher Quality = Higher Price? Does that make sense?

 

That was only YOUR fault, because if you have anything to show off now, all will just shut up.

 

On the Leica lenses, I believe you're right ... but your camera will be a severe bottleneck to limit your lenses' performance. As many have pointed out, a larger sensor will easily beat you in the final output from the "system".

[Photoskeptic]

If I had the bucks there is no question that I would purchase an S2. Because I think the lenses alone are going to blow everything else out of the water, just as the finer M lenses always have. But for me it's all pie in the sky. And I suppose that's the bottom line.

[luigi bertolotti]

If I had the bucks there is no question that I would purchase an S2. Because I think the lenses alone are going to blow everything else out of the water, just as the finer M lenses always have. But for me it's all pie in the sky. And I suppose that's the bottom line.

 

Uh...about lenses... I usually don't like rumors, but given that there is a declared INSIDER in this thread... are the S2 lenses coming out from Leica factory ? I ask because have heard something about a Japanese outsourcer... (not the raw glass, he intended, the whole design/assembly).

[Gentleman Villain]

Andy, are you under NDA?

 

I am not sure that this was meant to be published but I believe that people should read it. If they can be objective they will have to admit that the S2 is breaking new grounds and the positioning is different from existing MF systems.

 

The systems was developed together with Fashion and Advertising Professionals and it will give them a superior tool for certain applications than what they had so far. I am saying certain applications, not all of them and obviously the 10 - 15 users that keep complaining about the pricing are not understanding those benefits. Hopefully they will when specs are published.

 

I am sure that Erhardt was in no position to give out more details when he gave the PDN interview but it will not take months, like people are suggesting in this forum, before Leica publishes Specs but a matter of a few weeks.

 

I am stunned how only a few people here really try to understand the positioning of the camera whilst most just say that the price is too high w/o even knowing the specs of the camera or the performance of the lenses. You will be amazed how good those lenses are and there will be no Fuji/Mamiya lens that is as good. Higher Quality = Higher Price? Does that make sense?

 

Leica is not trying to take over the MF market, they are adding a new dimension to it. One that is so appealing that it will not only bring professionals to buy the camera but also amateurs that where intimidated by the complexity of MF systems in the past. The S2 is so easy to use that even an amateur can shoot with it, no problem.

 

And yes it is shocking these days but there are amateurs that don't mind spending that kind of money when it takes them onto a new quality level with a camera they feel comfortable handling.

 

excellent post

 

Don't be stunned by victory...if Leica has alienated low level professionals, prosumers and hobbyists with the release of the S2 then that's a good thing. The S2 is supposed to be an exclusive system. Exclusive means "sorry, there isn't room for everybody"

[Leica Insider]

That was only YOUR fault, because if you have anything to show off now, all will just shut up.

 

On the Leica lenses, I believe you're right ... but your camera will be a severe bottleneck to limit your lenses' performance. As many have pointed out, a larger sensor will easily beat you in the final output from the "system".

 

great, we are starting to get on the same page. I said in my first post that it probably wasn't the best decision to release pricing w/o tech specs and performance proofs.

 

I appreciate your comment and I would hope that all will just shut up but something tells me that will not be the case...

 

and with regards to the larger sensor: I agree to an extend but that would take me back to the point of understanding the positioning of the camera (size, weight, frame rate, ease of operation, etc.). I am confident that the sensor architecture and the lens quality will enable it to punch above its weight but that is my personal opinion at this point.

 

it doesn't change the fact though that the S2 will also save you - depending on your workflow - a lot of time in post production since you don't have to correct the shortcomings of the lens (and it shoots jpg if you need it. You can save the jpg on the SD card and the DNG on the CF).

[stephengilbert]

Leica Insider sounds like a high priced car salesman who drives a Toyota telling you that the Bentley he's selling is a good buy. The S2, if it works as promised, will be better at some things than some cameras, and better at other things than other cameras. The question that this thread seems most about, however, is whether its price is reasonable or justifiable. I don't know the answer to that, because I don't know whether it will be better enough to pay for itself.

 

I do think, however, that charging a great deal of money for "Platinum" service appears to be a mistake. It is certainly a mistake to post the price for that service without defining it. If it means Leica will deliver a replacement camera to you within X hours for your use until your camera is returned to you, that might make the charge sound more reasonable. But not saying makes it sound like you must take the risk of the camera failing. If Leica are confident that the camera is reliable, why the need to charge so much?

[haribo]

excellent post

 

Don't be stunned by victory...if Leica has alienated low level professionals, prosumers and hobbyists with the release of the S2 then that's a good thing. The S2 is supposed to be an exclusive system. Exclusive means "sorry, there isn't room for everybody"

 

No offense, but you seem to be rather full of yourself. A true Leica snob with a new found status symbol.

Exclusive my a**. If I want to go for the best there is, I still wouldn't consider the S2 for even a second. I'd go straight for the P65+.

[charlesphoto99]

 

I do think, however, that charging a great deal of money for "Platinum" service appears to be a mistake. It is certainly a mistake to post the price for that service without defining it. If it means Leica will deliver a replacement camera to you within X hours for your use until your camera is returned to you, that might make the charge sound more reasonable. But not saying makes it sound like you must take the risk of the camera failing. If Leica are confident that the camera is reliable, why the need to charge so much?

 

Exactly right. Superior sharpness, new level of blah blah blah, etc. will only take you so far. Ad and fashion people want reliability more than an extra bump in the corners on the MTF chart. And I'm sorry, but Leica just doesn't have the track record on reliability and service that other brands have. I'm not bashing - hey, I have a Leica logo tattoo on my arm. I'm an M lifer no matter how much I've been dicked around by NJ and inferior electronics on the M8 (and actually M6's and 7 that I've owned). I know lots of pros that shied away from the M8 for that reason. I love it but I don't rely on it. I have a D3 for that.

 

Anyway, I'm sure there will be a handful of buyers out there that can reason this one away. I know I'll reason away the cost of an M9 if and when it comes out because it is the way I like to work. But I already have the lenses I need (esp if full frame) bought used back in the film days so it's not like it will be this giant leap into the unknown.

[erlingmm]

No offense, but you seem to be rather full of yourself. A true Leica snob with a new found status symbol.

Exclusive my a**..

 

The social interaction in this forum is really funny:D

[AlanG]

Isn't that exactly the market that this is to be pitched at? Studio work?

 

I think I have a wider definition of studio work than you have. In any case, there may be a large enough market for this camera in the fashion, beauty, portrait (and perhaps general high end advertising) markets to sell enough cameras for Leica to be happy. I have no way of knowing their break even point or how the market will actually respond once the camera is marketed. And well-to-do enthusiasts are a wild card. Apparently a number of enthusiasts use MF digital.

 

But from the point of view of a buyer or rental house, the H3 is already entrenched in this market and is much more versatile as a rental item (more lenses and accessories) and various backs can be stocked which also can be rented for use on wide angle and view cameras. Plus the gear is familiar. So it may be hard to get real traction in rental houses.

 

On the other hand, I don't see that Leica had much choice but to go for a market where its pricing would not be too out of line compared with the competition's. But I am not sure if their window of opportunity was already missed. 35mm gear is going to put more and more pressure on MF gear which will force prices of MF gear down (if those manufacturers can actually make and sell the gear for less in order to stay in business.)

[haribo]

it doesn't change the fact though that the S2 will also save you - depending on your workflow - a lot of time in post production since you don't have to correct the shortcomings of the lens (and it shoots jpg if you need it. You can save the jpg on the SD card and the DNG on the CF).

 

Oh boy, this starts to sound like the 'S' setting on the M8.2. (S = Stupid, that is.)

No matter whether one uses Hasselblad/Focus or Phase, the time to correct a lens takes as long as clicking a button. Big deal.

The jpg thing is the equivalent to the above mentioned 'S' setting on the M8.2. It's for everyone who either doesn't have a decent digital workflow or doesn't know what to do in the first place.

Also, when it comes to that kinda file size as the S2 sports, two CF slots would make a heck more sense than one SD and one CF slot.

 

Having said all this, I am starting to wonder if the S2 in facts uses pixel binning for their jpgs (and hence the need for only a SD card???).

If that would be indeed the case, the S2 is in reality an overpriced P40+.

[charlesphoto99]

excellent post

 

Don't be stunned by victory...if Leica has alienated low level professionals, prosumers and hobbyists with the release of the S2 then that's a good thing. The S2 is supposed to be an exclusive system. Exclusive means "sorry, there isn't room for everybody"

 

Lets face it, Leica was never aiming for any of these people, even if the camera was priced say at $15K. But it's really the market that they SHOULD have been aiming for. Lets face it, how many high end fashion and ad shooters currently use a DMR vs a D3X or MkIII? Not many I suspect. Now how many "low level professionals, prosumers and hobbyists" use a DMR to shoot spring flowers and their seaside vacations? See what I mean?

 

The likes of Leibowitz and Platon use M film cameras occasionally (for the "backstage" shots) but otherwise it's Hassy or Mamiya or even Canon MkII in Leibowitz's case.many high end shooters can still afford to shoot film (and are hired for that reason). Leica just don't have the pro base for this. I just hope it doesn't affect the M line and the life of the company. That's the only reason I'm writing this. Otherwise I could care less how some people spend their money.

[lct]

...The S2 is supposed to be an exclusive system. Exclusive means "sorry, there isn't room for everybody"

Yes makes me think of the late R10 as well. Both bring the same message to average Joe Leica customers: not for you dudes. I guess the M9 will sell for $10K at least. This way Leica will make sure to keep 'exclusive' customers... exclusively.

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[sdai]

it doesn't change the fact though that the S2 will also save you - depending on your workflow - a lot of time in post production since you don't have to correct the shortcomings of the lens (and it shoots jpg if you need it. You can save the jpg on the SD card and the DNG on the CF).

 

I'm only one of those shameless amateurs who make nothing from my pictures, if family and friends are interested in my stuff, I normally send them the full res. jpegs and (often) with a 10x17 or bigger printout. In terms of workflow, I would only keep 5 to 10 of a 100 pictures and never feel tired of spending hours if not days working on 2 or 3 of them.

 

I understand that many folks' preferences over ACR/LR because they only want to finish their jobs ASAP but IMO Adobe has never paid enough attention to detail and color rendition, and imho their color profiles are among the worsts in the bunch.

 

It won't be difficult for you to find 1000 or even more braindead "leicaphiles" who will take everything with a red dot for granted in each year but it will be an insult to the people who really understand these stuff and can make the product shine (working pros and/or serious amateurs), as well as having a passion in Leica if, 1) the product doesn't stand up to competition 2) they're declined access to the system due to different reasons.

 

I personally have spent almost 3 years on this board when I first heard about the "R10" back in 2006 and I haven't seen much positive development on either front (R/M) since, now with the S2 came out of the blue I certainly don't want Leica to repeat their mistakes before.

 

I hope it won't take as long as 5 years before you see me coming on board - none of the 3 lenses I'm interested in will be available soon (24, 30 shift and 35-90) anyways and I'm not here because I want to nitpick or "socialize". Leica should understand the frustration and angry on the board because people who truly have a space reserved for Leica in their hearts often feel being ignored and let down.