plasticman Posted July 27, 2009 Share #1 Posted July 27, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I've been thinking as usual of buying a film M again after very foolishly selling mine off (cheap). I'm willing to wait and find an M4 or an M6 that's mint - probably from a dealer - but I also decided to look at what's on offer on eb@y, and I just really can't understand how apparently every single M4 ever made is both still in mint or Exc++ condition (although often the images show a rather beat-up camera), and also all of these multitude of cameras are rare. Dealer seems to be the way to go... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 27, 2009 Posted July 27, 2009 Hi plasticman, Take a look here How is it that EVERY Leica on 'the bay' is MINT and RARE?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
offshore Posted July 27, 2009 Share #2 Posted July 27, 2009 I've been thinking as usual of buying a film M again after very foolishly selling mine off (cheap). I'm willing to wait and find an M4 or an M6 that's mint - probably from a dealer - but I also decided to look at what's on offer on eb@y, and I just really can't understand how apparently every single M4 ever made is both still in mint or Exc++ condition (although often the images show a rather beat-up camera), and also all of these multitude of cameras are rare. Dealer seems to be the way to go... All the guidelines for grading camera equipment have changed for the worst because of eBay, and most people don't have a clue as to how to determine the amount of wear on a camera and grade it properly. One of the main differences is you have fewer people who actually use the equipment selling it and more "drop it off and we'll sell it for you" stores who are only in it for profit and know nothing about photo equipment. I got into it with a woman who listed a camera as "new in box, only used a few times." She couldn't, or wouldn't accept that a camera that has been used, even once, is no longer new in box. My favorite is the new term, that came out a few years ago, of "minty." What the hell is that? Does it get left on your pillow at a hotel? When I buy from anyone, including a dealer, I assume they know nothing about a camera and get a return policy without restocking fee and always ask for more pictures from an online seller if you feel you need them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share #3 Posted July 27, 2009 I got into it with a woman who listed a camera as "new in box, only used a few times." She couldn't, or wouldn't accept that a camera that has been used, even once, is no longer new in box. That is hilarious. The listings on ebay seem to be totally arbitrary - but generally the images don't lie, with nicks and scratches and dents and scraped or crumbling leather on 'MINT' cameras. I just can't understand the thinking behind it - nor the starting prices that are often higher than the (already expensive) reputable European dealers. I guess they're just hoping for someone green to come along. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted July 27, 2009 Share #4 Posted July 27, 2009 I think 'minty' must be the words mint and dodgy pushed together, with the emphasis on mint! We await the epithet 'well minty'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted July 27, 2009 Share #5 Posted July 27, 2009 Mintish maybe or 'hint of mint' might be better I have bought cameras off e bay, usually relying on the photos, examining feedback, asking a few detailed questions before bidding and expecting the actual article to be a little worse that shown/described (photos don't show everything). This approach has served me well so far, my M2 was a bargain and in much nicer condition than I expected - almost too nice! If you see someone include the disclaimer 'I don't know anything about ....because it was my (insert relative) so please don't ask me anything technical' - basically that means the items broken but I'm hoping someone will bid a decent price in the hope that they think they are picking up a bargain from someone ignorant!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted July 27, 2009 Share #6 Posted July 27, 2009 I think 'minty' must be the words mint and dodgy pushed together, with the emphasis on mint! We await the epithet 'well minty'. There is a well known UK dealer who uses the term "minty" ... Init!! dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted July 27, 2009 Share #7 Posted July 27, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) It is mint if all the parts are present and it seems to operate with no regard to accuracy. A few people on the bay started selling junk as mint and others had to follow suit in order to compete for the first time buyers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcoombs Posted July 27, 2009 Share #8 Posted July 27, 2009 I once bought an M3 off ebay which was listed as clean and excel++. You know, the usual routine. The pictures didn't lie, the camera was cosmetically clean, with no nicks or bright marks. Trouble was it had been CLA'd by a mechanic who must have learned his trade on tractors! Using the advance lever felt like moving sand, it was so dry. I quickly swapped it for an M3 I could touch and test directly. Anything you buy sight unseen had better be really cheap, 'cause you're going to be putting money into it. Doug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted July 27, 2009 Share #9 Posted July 27, 2009 There is a definite tendency for sellers and even some dealers to describe Leica items as "rare" or "very rare" and they also exacerbate same by use of an exclamation mark. Very few Leica items offered are in fact as rare as the sellers purport and many are relatively common. Sellers should maybe consider the use of the word "scarce" instead of "rare" and even then use it only if the item is truly scarce eg a 350mm Telyt R or a titanium M6. Cheers dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted July 27, 2009 Share #10 Posted July 27, 2009 For me (who never bought anything on ebay) this is simply the difference between the listings made by serious dealers (in which statements like "conditions C/D" abound, with adequate prices) and by e-sellers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 27, 2009 Share #11 Posted July 27, 2009 I choose professional sellers on eBay. Never got a problem so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted July 28, 2009 Share #12 Posted July 28, 2009 I came across an eBay listing yesterday for a 50 mm F2 Summicron that described it as a mint and rare "high leg" model. Looking at the photo's you could just see that the mount had been engraved. I questioned the seller about the engraving and the "high leg" description and he wrote back that he knew nothing about Leica, had originally listed it as a rigid Summicron but had been told by a Leica expert that the lens was a "high leg" variety. I wrote him back to tell him that he was having his leg pulled and he changed the listing right away. He has yet to answer the question about the engraving but then he'd have to take off the mint rating. Gotta love it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted July 28, 2009 Share #13 Posted July 28, 2009 I came across an eBay listing yesterday for a 50 mm F2 Summicron that described it as a mint and rare "high leg" model. Looking at the photo's you could just see that the mount had been engraved. I questioned the seller about the engraving and the "high leg" description and he wrote back that he knew nothing about Leica, had originally listed it as a rigid Summicron but had been told by a Leica expert that the lens was a "high leg" variety. I wrote him back to tell him that he was having his leg pulled and he changed the listing right away. He has yet to answer the question about the engraving but then he'd have to take off the mint rating. Gotta love it. Certainly it's a new one on me too ... but it seems to mean something in Hong Kong. Here are some pictures: Forum - Leica summicron 50 F2 HIGH LEG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 28, 2009 Share #14 Posted July 28, 2009 ...Here are some pictures: Forum - Leica summicron 50 F2 HIGH LEG Looks like the code # 11817 (1969-1979) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/91772-how-is-it-that-every-leica-on-the-bay-is-mint-and-rare/?do=findComment&comment=975303'>More sharing options...
offshore Posted July 29, 2009 Share #15 Posted July 29, 2009 Looks like the code # 11817 (1969-1979) So where's the "high leg" part or is this an amputee? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted July 29, 2009 Share #16 Posted July 29, 2009 I liked the M2 ( I think it was a M2) that was listed as "Near Mint" with big marks on the top plate from a meter being put on and taken off. I have listed M's in near perfect condition and it was near perfect but it was not "Perfect", "Mint". I also showed images of the 2 or 3 marks on the edges of the top plate. Mint is just that, no marks of any kind anywhere on the camera and everything working as it was shipped from the factory. Recently I saw a black M3 that clearly never started it's life as a black camera. One big reason was it was to nice and the serial number was to low and not on the list of black M3's. It was also listed with a black paint 50 Cron. Whoever did the paint job did a nice job but it was not a factory black paint M or 50 Cron. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 29, 2009 Share #17 Posted July 29, 2009 So where's the "high leg" part or is this an amputee? Never heard of this leg thing before. It might come from the fact that the 11817 (pic 1) is a bit longer than the 11819 (pic 2) due to its regular focus ring instead of the focus tab of the black 11819 or silver 11825. Just a guess though. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/91772-how-is-it-that-every-leica-on-the-bay-is-mint-and-rare/?do=findComment&comment=976190'>More sharing options...
offshore Posted July 29, 2009 Share #18 Posted July 29, 2009 Never heard of this leg thing before. It might come from the fact that the 11817 (pic 1) is a bit longer than the 11819 (pic 2) due to its regular focus ring instead of the focus tab of the black 11819 or silver 11825. Just a guess though. I haven't either and I do see the difference in the focus ring but why "leg." Wasn't one of the King Edwards called "Long Shanks" for some reason that nobody can figure out. Maybe this is the same or someone is just trying to make something appear different so it can be called "rare." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmlopes Posted July 29, 2009 Share #19 Posted July 29, 2009 I haven't either and I do see the difference in the focus ring but why "leg." Wasn't one of the King Edwards called "Long Shanks" for some reason that nobody can figure out. Maybe this is the same or someone is just trying to make something appear different so it can be called "rare." Edward I or "Long Shanks" as he was known beacuse of his height 6ft 2in, probably not out of the ordinary now but back in 1200's a bit of an oddity. Always liked history at shcool Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted July 29, 2009 Share #20 Posted July 29, 2009 Rather like those who refer to the M8 'classic' or M8 'u' - can see that causing more confusion in the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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