wildlightphoto Posted June 22, 2009 Share #1 Posted June 22, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just some brainstorming while recovering from endorphin deprivation ... suppose Leica were to make a 1.25x Apo-Extender-R/S that would make R lenses usable on the S2 with the lens' original field of view? As I'm envisioning it the extender could have the electronics and mechanical couplings to meter at full aperture and stop down the diaphragm, controlled by the body. Would this interest anyone? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Hi wildlightphoto, Take a look here maybe I'm daft but.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
gdb Posted June 22, 2009 Share #2 Posted June 22, 2009 very good idea !... Gérard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted June 22, 2009 Share #3 Posted June 22, 2009 Around Photokina, we all thought that would be the case but Leica stated that it would not be possible. I don't know what their reasons were, however there must be some technical hurdles impeding its implementation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 22, 2009 Share #4 Posted June 22, 2009 I wouldn't pay €15K+ to get a monster cropped body personally but i don't use long teles that much so a couple of Zeiss lenses plus my current R's will do it on my 5D so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 22, 2009 Share #5 Posted June 22, 2009 But the flange to sensor distance on the S is going to be greater than the R, so how would you get infinity focussing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 22, 2009 Share #6 Posted June 22, 2009 That is obviously why the idea is an optical system. The problem is that one would need a different one for each lens design. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsteve Posted June 23, 2009 Share #7 Posted June 23, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) But the flange to sensor distance on the S is going to be greater than the R, so how would you get infinity focusing? Steve: It would be like the Canon FD to EOS adapter, which corrected it optically at the loss of a bit of a crop. The Canon adapter was only usable on the super telephotos, as it had a nose that protruded into the rear of the lens, similar to the current Leica 1.4x extender. The Canon adapter though did not have any auto aperture to convert the mechanical FD to the electrical EOS. As for the cropped use on the S2, some of the Leica Telephotos have image circles that would probably work full frame on the S2. Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ross Posted June 23, 2009 Share #8 Posted June 23, 2009 But the flange to sensor distance on the S is going to be greater than the R, so how would you get infinity focussing? I have two "optical" adapters for the Minolta (now Sony) A mount, one for OM and the other for Nikkor lenses. The adapters add about 1.23X TC effect. I used them with film and thought they'd be trash with digital, but when I got a 6MP KM5D, I tried them and found them fine for that resolution. I wouldn't be surprised if they come apart at today's megapixel counts. They were cheap and they are fun...oh, and the lenses do focus at infinity. So, there is hope, though it isn't exactly an affordable or light weight solution. Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted June 23, 2009 Share #9 Posted June 23, 2009 I wouldn't pay €15K+ to get a monster cropped body personally but i don't use long teles that much so a couple of Zeiss lenses plus my current R's will do it on my 5D so far. "monster cropped body"..surely you must be teasing us..it is hardly a monster body..you make it seem as big as a pentax67. I have full confidence that the guys and gals at solms could go back and rethink the whole viability of the r adapter on the S2..when they said no they were still thinking and working on a R10. I think the adapter would be great and with it an etched ground glass with the FF35 frame lines as well as a FF shooting mode for 24mp files.. btw it would be smaller than my R9dmr, hardly a monster.. doug, "from your lips to the their ears"..I hope they have waxed recently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicar7 Posted June 23, 2009 Share #10 Posted June 23, 2009 Doug, Endorphine or dopamine depravation? Anyway, the S2 is only imaginable for current R users for those who have enough and are willing to spend for one. That will be a very small percentage of current R users. The point of continuing an R system is not just to have any kind of jury-rigged box on which to mount old R lenses, but a FF system which would continue to spawn new lenses, as we transition over some years from current to new lenses. If new lenses are not to be forseen at Leica for an R system, there really is no point to going forward. While their R teles are probably as fine as can be achieved, they failed to upgrade the wide to normal lenses in concert with the M cousins. There are a few exemplars, but they are all now well behind M developments. That I am disheartened doesn't begin to describe my feelings on this. I just wish that Stefan would come clean and say "Sorry to all, we're done." The thread of hope of some workable "solution" at some undefined still later time is just plain unacceptable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted June 23, 2009 Share #11 Posted June 23, 2009 Doug, From my understanding, the S lenses will only be better than the R lenses ... so, if you are seriously considering a S2 why would you bother with R lenses knowing all its limitations and shortfalls? That's why I'm selling some right now. Even if Leica had chosen to build a R10, I'd still sell some of the older R lenses in anticipation to more superior AF R lenses. Time changes and Leica is also moving forward ... I'd bet the 350 S lens will blow your 280 APO out of the water. An optical adapter is surely going to degrade the combo's optical quality ... if you can live with that, why not just go for a Nikon 300 or Canon 300? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted June 23, 2009 Share #12 Posted June 23, 2009 Doug, From my understanding, the S lenses will only be better than the R lenses ... so, if you are seriously considering a S2 why would you bother with R lenses knowing all its limitations and shortfalls? That's why I'm selling some right now. Even if Leica had chosen to build a R10, I'd still sell some of the older R lenses in anticipation to more superior AF R lenses. Time changes and Leica is also moving forward ... I'd bet the 350 S lens will blow your 280 APO out of the water. An optical adapter is surely going to degrade the combo's optical quality ... if you can live with that, why not just go for a Nikon 300 or Canon 300? the reason to bother with it is because of some special lenses the r line has which will not be available for awhile on the S, like the lux and or apo lenses. .. I am sure there will be some people shooters who would love to have a 180f2 on a S2 body.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted June 23, 2009 Share #13 Posted June 23, 2009 the reason to bother with it is because of some special lenses the r line has which will not be available for awhile on the S, like the lux and or apo lenses. .. I am sure there will be some people shooters who would love to have a 180f2 on a S2 body.. A "lux" won't be very useful on a S2 IMO because the effective DOF at open aperture would be equivalent to a f/1.1 on 35mm format. Also all S lenses longer than 100mm are APO corrected so what's your point? ... I agree, there's no equivalent to the 180 Cron in Leica's S roadmap but no other "larger than 35mm format" lineup has it either. The proposed APO 350/3.5 S lens is the equivalent to a APO 280/2.8 on a R9/R10 in terms of effective focal length and DoF ... if you can get that, there's certainly no good reason to keep the 280/4. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted June 23, 2009 Share #14 Posted June 23, 2009 A "lux" won't be very useful on a S2 IMO because the effective DOF at open aperture would be equivalent to a f/1.1 on 35mm format. Also all S lenses longer than 100mm are APO corrected so what's your point? ... I agree, there's no equivalent to the 180 Cron in Leica's S roadmap but no other "larger than 35mm format" lineup has it either. The proposed APO 350/3.5 S lens is the equivalent to a APO 280/2.8 on a R9/R10 in terms of effective focal length and DoF ... if you can get that, there's certainly no good reason to keep the 280/4. my point was not to use the R lenses so much on the full frame S2 but in a cropped 35mm mode, giving me a FF35dslr option ..and I am sure you will agree that a 50 f1.4 has the same depth of field no matter what body it is on or how big the sensor. the S2 lenses will be apo, yes.. but not that fast..and the special quality of say an 80mm lux is really not had by a perfect chart.. when I spoke of the apo lenses I was thinking of the fast teles..which are a good stop faster than the S lenses..I try not to get too caught up in all the conversion ratios and fov equivalents, I learned long ago to go by focal lenth and aperture and their effects with different formats. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted June 23, 2009 Share #15 Posted June 23, 2009 Hi, Paul it may be worthwhile to search for depth of field & sensor size stuff on this site as it has been discussed to death. Bottom line: the equivalant focal length, depth of field, equivalent aperture etc. depend on the lens and on the sensor size - it is a long and gruesome tale but that is the way it is. Besides that there are also related discussions on redefining what the DoF concept is based on in the modern pixel peeping times. It is NOT only the lens. This may appear to be nonsense or in flagrant denial of basic physics but this is not the case. If you want some further info please let me know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 23, 2009 Share #16 Posted June 23, 2009 my point was not to use the R lenses so much on the full frame S2 but in a cropped 35mm mode, giving me a FF35dslr option... Yes using the S2 in cropped mode as i suggested above. But you would use your R lenses in stop down metering exactly like with a FF DSLR. So you would pay €15K+ to get what exactly? Lack of AA filter? Not sure how useful it can be actually but having the latter removed from a 5D or same would be much cheaper no? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 23, 2009 Share #17 Posted June 23, 2009 ...Bottom line: the equivalant focal length, depth of field, equivalent aperture etc. depend on the lens and on the sensor size... Not in cropped mode. The S2's sensor would be used like a FF 24x36. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted June 23, 2009 Share #18 Posted June 23, 2009 OK,OK the used (part of the) sensor size. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted June 24, 2009 Author Share #19 Posted June 24, 2009 Yes using the S2 in cropped mode as i suggested above. But you would use your R lenses in stop down metering exactly like with a FF DSLR. A 1.25x extender could expand the image circle to fill the S2's sensor. That's how I came up with the 1.25x figure. And an electro-mechanical interface in the extender could maintain full-aperture metering and auto-diaphragm. I wouldn't worry too much about a loss of resolution from the extender. My 280 f/4 with the old 1.4x APO-Extender out-resolves the DMR's sensor. I'd expect a new extender of lesser magnification could do as well even if it's providing a bigger image circle. Look what Leica has to gain with this sort of thing: The S2 would have immediate access to stuff like the modular APO-Telyts instead of just the few CS lenses initially planned. I'd think the S2 body would be an easier sell with a broader range of lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 24, 2009 Share #20 Posted June 24, 2009 A 1.25x extender could expand the image circle to fill the S2's sensor. That's how I came up with the 1.25x figure. And an electro-mechanical interface in the extender could maintain full-aperture metering and auto-diaphragm. I think you might need to speak to an optical engineer to see if this is possible or realistic. It seems to me that there must be some good reasons why nobody has previously tried to spread the image from a 35mm lens onto a larger format. (Although the Hassleblad TS adapter seems to do something like this.) I think this is more in the cards for your future - Live view via a high quality loupe, magnified MF focusing on any spot of the sensor (just press a button next to your thumb,) no mirror vibration, hi ISO, bright view even with R lens stopped down. - I'm not sure how you'd shoot verticals...but that can be fixed if you mount to a rotating lens collar. A slow fps rate though unless you do video. Zacuto USA 888-294-3456 | NEW-Zacuto DSLR Gunstock Shooter Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/88652-maybe-im-daft-but/?do=findComment&comment=942424'>More sharing options...
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