delander † Posted July 11, 2009 Share #121 Posted July 11, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I know that German companies pay on time but I find the payment 2 years in advance to be very difficult to believe. Suppose the supplier goes belly up? Leica takes the hit? Just in time perhaps is the reason the IR filters are in such short supply. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 Hi delander †, Take a look here Death of the R - How do you really feel?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
hoppyman Posted July 11, 2009 Share #122 Posted July 11, 2009 Frank, see my tag line The issue is not company size it is the credit rating that Leica has. In my view the Leica bankers will be wanting to see evidence of:1 Recent business performance since they had the credit issues some years ago that caused Hermes to sell, and the company was split up. 2 A clear believable strategy that suggests that Leica will enjoy a brilliant future, and be able to repay any credits given. 3 Evidence that the executive team is driving the company forward as per the plan . Frankly this thread and others show how difficult it will be in my view to woo the bankers as there is so many issues surrounding Leica's plan at both a product and commercial level. "Just in time delivery" or "ship to line" is superb for volume production of something that has high cost components in it, and where fast assembly is the order of the day. How that fits with handcrafted assembly in small batches I would have thought was less obvious. If they are receiving huge quantities of lens blanks all at one time then hopefully they have a strategy to sell these as finished product very quickly........or the cost of component inventory, plus WIP and finished goods inventory must be a real issue. Add to that the concept that they also need to pay in advance suggests to me at least that at a business level they have issues to address....unless the component cost to make a lens is say £20 for a lens that sells to a dealer when finished at £2000, which Idoubt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 13, 2009 Share #123 Posted July 13, 2009 Frank, see my tag line I have seen the tag line but the reality seems to be somehwat different. They have a new CEO who is apparently supposed to primarily focus sales rather that address the sort of issues that you have raised. Most people believe as I do that Dr Kaufmann is the main decision maker on issues such as bank credits, strategy direction product roadmap and operations plus he is behind the retail boutiques. For me a CEO is someone who balances sales, cash flow, operations etc etc and feels responsible for the strategy...I hope that in reality that is what the CEO is doing. As for the business plan .....again hopefully all is well as if it isn't my Leica investment will drop in value and future lenses for my kit will not happen. I have no visibility on the Leica business plan but JIT with 2 years prepayment to suppliers, against a backdrop of "R" system dropped and inventory effectively sold off cheaply and all the other concerns raised in this thread and elsewher in the forum during the last weeks cannot be good news can it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin K Posted July 13, 2009 Share #124 Posted July 13, 2009 It's been a while now since the news broke so, have your views changed? Are you more or less angry, frustrated and disappointed, or more or less inclined to give Leica a second chance with its future 'digital solution for R lenses'?Has anyone moved from negative thoughts to positive, or vice versa? Or perhaps resignation has set in and you've decided to move on, dslr wise. I have mulled over the news for a while now. Always better to get let the "knee-jerk" reaction settle. My first SL I bought in 1972, since then have used SL2, R3, R3MOT, R4, R9, DMR and a lens park of 21 to 560mm. Have upgraded cameras and lenses over the years, sold older models. I am sad, really sad, didn't think it would be that way. Angry I am not, as I can think through the reasons for Leica not going on with the R10 - all to obvious in hindsight. For a small company like Leica to compete with the Cs, Ns, Ps and Ss that bring out a new DSLR every other month to keep their names in the public eye, the sales going and their factories running, is a big ask. But, all of these run a single system, albeit with "entry point" cameras through to professional equipment, including concomitant lenses, costing a multiple of the entry levels. Leica would have had three systems to keep running, M, R and S - that would have been suicidal. Even M and S together is a big ask. So I am wishing Leica all the best, long may they be around. I will have to find another system to first augment and later replace my R equipment. The S system sounds beautiful, but will be out of my price league. My M6 and four lenses have languished in mothballs for more than five years now, so a M8 or M9 it will not be either. The 100 Apo Macro and 60 Macro I will use for as long as the R9/DMR combo lasts, as autofocus is not that important here. But the other lenses I will replace with autofocus - we are not getting younger and the eyesight is not what it used to be. I will probably not wait for the Leica R-solution to come about - that will be another year or two, unfortunately. And adapting R-lenses on Canon or re-bayonetting them for Nikon is not the answer in the long run in my view, for my situation. As Juergen Winkler said many years ago, do not be sad that the sunny days on the mountain tops are over, rather be glad that they were. I really enjoyed my Leicas, Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamey Posted July 14, 2009 Share #125 Posted July 14, 2009 The R is not Dead but has been Retired after 40 + years of faithful service. And frankly I very much doubt if it's replacement the S system will survive half that, as cheaper technology will surpass it and kill it. Long live the R. Ken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_dykstra Posted July 14, 2009 Share #126 Posted July 14, 2009 I still think a factor in 'retiring' the R system was the potential of an R10 to compete with the S2. There's no question, the S2 will be one hell of a camera system. I might even get one - I expect its performance, handling and ergonomics to be simply outstanding. But would I, nowadays a serious amateur who sells a few photos instead of a part time professional, buy an S2 if an R 10 was coming a year later? No. I'd wait for the R10 and then decide. I hope and believe the S2 will be quite successful for Leica. I will certainly be watching with keen interest. I still believe an R10, a simple full frame manual focus body - a digital upgrade of the R9, could easily have been developed and marketed by Leica. There's a functioning prototype lurking in their lab somewhere. I also believe we will see an adapter to put R lenses on the S2 body within a year or two of release. And if the M9 and S2 make good money, I think we'll see an R10. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posto 6 Posted August 5, 2009 Share #127 Posted August 5, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) With deep regret- and after much time and contemplation- I am coming to the conclusion that I will have no choice but to abandon my Leica R and M syatem equipment, as I cannot make a logical case for sinking more money into the Company's products in view of their uncertain prospects and irregular product development prospects. While I very much enjoy using Leica equipment, I am not a charity, and feel no need to purchase Leica products out of pity or a compulsiuon to support basket-case product ranges. Just as my investment over time in the R system (I have the 15mm, 16mm, 19mm,24mm,28mm, 35mm Summilux,50mm Summilux, 80mm Summilux, 280mm f:2.8 and Angenieux 70-210mm, plus 3 SL2 Mots and one R7) has proven to be a dead-end, so would almost certainly any investment in the S-system, as well as, regrettably expanding my remaining investments in the M-system (still have my M3 1966 model, M6J,and 35mm Summilux, 50mm Summilux and Summicron DR, as wellas 90mm fatTele-Elmarit, having already sold my WATE, 21mm Elmarit Asph, Noctilux and 90mm Summicron-M, as well as my M8, M7 and M4-P). I feel rather sorry for any losses that the the recent shareholder in Leica has incurred- he seems like a thgoroughly good and decent man- but I will not be prepared to stand around any further tilting at windmills. Every good thing mus unfortunately at some time come to and end, and life will move on in due course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheikhrafiq79 Posted August 5, 2009 Share #128 Posted August 5, 2009 The death of R is really so bad for me , since 25 years of my career I am using R and M system. i tested many Japanese SLR/DSLR , but i could not find quality like Leica, I travel frequently and i do photography a lot , I am really surprised when Lieca announced for discontinue of R system, they really work many years to develop digital R system and surprisingly they stop, my R9+DMR with many lenses are still like new and working perfectly and I am so happy with this, If you see back to lieca philosophy small camera large print its ok with R and M system, I really made 24 x 36 inches prints with 300 dpi from my DMR, nobody can not see pixel from six inches and quality is like 4x6 large format scan. The S2 they says camera is like smaller as 35 mm camera , but sensor is 56% larger than 35 mm camera , how about the lens , they must be long and wide in circle, i think the lenses are not small like R so handling not like R, I really hate autofocus lenses and I never rely on autofocus system, also I like traditional aperture ring/ shutter system , and investment in leica system not a joke , I think after buying a one new Leica system I cannot jump to other Leica system. thanks reply plz. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhsimmonds Posted August 5, 2009 Share #129 Posted August 5, 2009 With deep regret- and after much time and contemplation- I am coming to the conclusion that I will have no choice but to abandon my Leica R and M syatem equipment, as I cannot make a logical case for sinking more money into the Company's products in view of their uncertain prospects and irregular product development prospects. While I very much enjoy using Leica equipment, I am not a charity, and feel no need to purchase Leica products out of pity or a compulsiuon to support basket-case product ranges. Just as my investment over time in the R system (I have the 15mm, 16mm, 19mm,24mm,28mm, 35mm Summilux,50mm Summilux, 80mm Summilux, 280mm f:2.8 and Angenieux 70-210mm, plus 3 SL2 Mots and one R7) has proven to be a dead-end, so would almost certainly any investment in the S-system, as well as, regrettably expanding my remaining investments in the M-system (still have my M3 1966 model, M6J,and 35mm Summilux, 50mm Summilux and Summicron DR, as wellas 90mm fatTele-Elmarit, having already sold my WATE, 21mm Elmarit Asph, Noctilux and 90mm Summicron-M, as well as my M8, M7 and M4-P). I feel rather sorry for any losses that the the recent shareholder in Leica has incurred- he seems like a thgoroughly good and decent man- but I will not be prepared to stand around any further tilting at windmills. Every good thing mus unfortunately at some time come to and end, and life will move on in due course. I also came to the same conclusion and I have sold all my Leica gear except the D-Lux-4. Instead I have invested in a Sony A900 full frame DSLR with mostly Zeiss lenses and I really don't regret the decision. Image quality is excellent, handling is very sublime.....no huge array of menus with many programmable buttons to select instead. If only the R10 could have been like that....ah well. Life is too short and I wish Leica well but regrettably they are no longer for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 5, 2009 Share #130 Posted August 5, 2009 ...my R9+DMR with many lenses are still like new and working perfectly and I am so happy with this...I think after buying a one new Leica system I cannot jump to other Leica system... So your choice is keeping your DMR or using a canikosony in stop down metering mode if you want to keep your Leica lenses. Easy choice if you like your DMR no? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilfredo Posted August 5, 2009 Share #131 Posted August 5, 2009 I was hoping for a Leica R10 DSLR. I would have probably sold all my Canon gear and moved totally into Leica mode especially if the R10 rendered image quality like that of the M8. I am disappointed that this will not be an option. The new S2 is not being marketed for people like myself. I'm not a pro but nevertheless I am dead serious about photography (Benitez-Rivera Photography). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gvaliquette Posted August 7, 2009 Share #132 Posted August 7, 2009 I think that continued production of the R9 and the introduction of a full frame DMR-II would have been viable. And it should not have treathened the S2 market significantly. I'll just keep using the DMR and film as long as I can. Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 7, 2009 Share #133 Posted August 7, 2009 With deep regret- and after much time and contemplation- I am coming to the conclusion that I will have no choice but to abandon my Leica R and M syatem equipment, as I cannot make a logical case for sinking more money into the Company's products in view of their uncertain prospects and irregular product development prospects. While I very much enjoy using Leica equipment, I am not a charity, and feel no need to purchase Leica products out of pity or a compulsiuon to support basket-case product ranges. Just as my investment over time in the R system (I have the 15mm, 16mm, 19mm,24mm,28mm, 35mm Summilux,50mm Summilux, 80mm Summilux, 280mm f:2.8 and Angenieux 70-210mm, plus 3 SL2 Mots and one R7) has proven to be a dead-end, so would almost certainly any investment in the S-system, as well as, regrettably expanding my remaining investments in the M-system (still have my M3 1966 model, M6J,and 35mm Summilux, 50mm Summilux and Summicron DR, as wellas 90mm fatTele-Elmarit, having already sold my WATE, 21mm Elmarit Asph, Noctilux and 90mm Summicron-M, as well as my M8, M7 and M4-P). I feel rather sorry for any losses that the the recent shareholder in Leica has incurred- he seems like a thgoroughly good and decent man- but I will not be prepared to stand around any further tilting at windmills. Every good thing mus unfortunately at some time come to and end, and life will move on in due course. Amazing that all that gear suddenly stopped making excellent photographs... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yst Posted August 7, 2009 Share #134 Posted August 7, 2009 All those seem should not stop the continuing use of the excellent R-system to produce excellent photos, after all it is what the photography that counts, not the development of the "digital" world. In reality, how many more "better" (or real meaningful) photo images have been added to the world ever since the "invention of digital"... than the before with just films... ? Or nowadays it is more of a "Photoshopgraphy" than real Photography? I find the R system (and M) with it's great lenses with films, particularly the excellent slide film have done a great fun and satisfaction for my own photography, and shall continue to be so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted August 7, 2009 Share #135 Posted August 7, 2009 In reality, how many more "better" (or real meaningful) photo images have been added to the world ever since the "invention of digital"... than the before with just films... ? Speaking only for myself, I recently went through my entire set of photos for the last ~40 years, narrowed the 'cream of the crop' down to about 25 images, and noticed that 20 were made in the last three years with the DMR. YMMV. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posto 6 Posted August 8, 2009 Share #136 Posted August 8, 2009 One further thought- by abandoning one of their (only) two existing ranges and failing to secure a satisfactory digital compatibility for users of R-glass, Leica not only successfully alienates existing clients with investments in their products, but also manages to severely dent the credibility of their S-series (I for one would never invest again heavily in any other new Leica ranges). Their whole business development model smacks of an amateurish approach, and the lack of consistency in their "promised" future offerings makes it rather difficult to give much credence to any of their product announcements. In any event, the market already seems to be making up it's own verdict...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 8, 2009 Share #137 Posted August 8, 2009 I don't see how this dents the credibility of the S2 If they are spending their money concentrating on the S2, and all its pro back up, rather than trying to compete with the likes of Canon and Nikon, then that has to be a good thing for the company and its future. They need to take the pro market seriously - they can't afford to fail with the S2. As an existing R user myself, I am disappointed that there will be no Leica R solution going forwards. So much so, that I have bought a Nikon digital only instead. But, I am prepared to look at the bigger picture. Leica never made any real money out of the R. Let them concentrate on something that might just do that. And as for the market making up a verdict? Not sure what you mean here. Sales down 14%? Well, look around you. How are Nikon doing at the moment? In the current climate, that's not too bad a performance, especially since Dr Kaufmann has continued to invest and write of R&D expenditure. Leica's litre glass has 500ml in it. I see this as half full. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posto 6 Posted August 8, 2009 Share #138 Posted August 8, 2009 I don't see how this dents the credibility of the S2 Leica's litre glass has 500ml in it. I see this as half full. I truly and sincerely hope that this is the case. However, Leica have turned themselves from a mainstream standard-setter (in LTM and M days) to a rather small niche player, which makes it extremely difficult to introduce new standards and ranges successfully. With the continuing miniaturization and advances in technology, any arguments for the desireability of larger formats such as the S2 are likely to be superseded by events. The R-syatem currewntly seems to be being retroactively demonized as a "prosumer" range, which is a far cry from reality (although convenient for selling S2s). It is foolish to abandon an existing client base as a result of dogma. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_dykstra Posted August 8, 2009 Share #139 Posted August 8, 2009 Amazing that all that gear suddenly stopped making excellent photographs... I have fun these days when I show the kids in my soccer teams a sheet of Astia trannies. "Now kids, these little pictures don't come out of one of those digital cameras. They're from camera called a film camera and they make much better pictures. You can shine light through them and see a huge picture of you up on the wall and it looks fantastic." "Oh, cool!" they say. "Can we get one Dad?" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elansprint72 Posted August 8, 2009 Share #140 Posted August 8, 2009 Amazing that all that gear suddenly stopped making excellent photographs... Isn't it just? I have never understood how the camera magazines (not photography magazines) have brain-washed the spending public into thinking that as soon as a slightly newer model is introduced the previously "best in the world" model is rendered useless. As the proverb says- there is many a good tune played on an old fiddle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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