Hessenpark News: Official - No R10: no FF M9 (yet)

[rob_x2004]

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What Giordano said. Its good enough for 99% of the images we see today, or 99.99% Whats an hour of TV worth?. Works for people shooting things at each other, works at night.

The only thing is I find focus confirmation useless unless it is with AF. For manual (or electonic manual focus) you need something to lead you into focus, like a split or a patch.

Leica developing one that works well? Thats a big wait and see.

[mhoersch]

What about those of us who WANT a proper viewfinder anyway? Who is going to cater for us? It's like saying to died in the wool M users that p&s is the only way to go now, sorry, but it's what our customers want

 

Well, we don't

 

Maybe I'll get Stefan's D/L numbe from Frank and tell him personally

 

Andy, I'm 100% with you. I couldn't care less about LV and definitively don't want an EVF. I would go so far as to say: if my DMR stops working and the only alternative is peering through a black tunnel at a tiny TV screen (EVF) - it's back to film for me, although I hate scanning.

I want to enjoy looking through a viewfinder, not put up with it. I thought Leica would be the one company to understand this.

 

My regards to Herr Daniel...

[jaapv]

 

 

Is anyone really saying that cameras should only have live view? Even small sensor cameras now have the provision for mounting an optical viewfinder when the user diesn't want to use the LCD.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

Wild Beasts of Botswana

 

In fact, Mitch, you are the first one saying so. I cannot imagine Leica even entertaining the though, nor anybody interpreting Mr. Daniel's words this way.

EVF, now that is definitly on the cards. But I would not advise holding an EVIL camera at arms lenghth any more than I would a current DSLR.

[mjh]

the only alternative is peering through a black tunnel at a tiny TV screen (EVF)

But that’s not the only alternative … When have you last looked through an EVF? The image in the EVF of a G1 is huge; its magnification equals that of a Nikon D3X. An EVF doesn’t have to be the black tunnel you remember from yesterday’s EVFs. Resolution could still be higher (even when the 1440.000 dots/480.000 pixels of the G1 EVF already deliver quite a lot of image detail), the speed of both the display panel and the image processor must be improved, and the dynamic range should be higher – although the latter would increase with the sensor’s dynamic range anyway. But if whatever Leica’s solution will turn out to be should use an EVF, it won’t have to rely on the state-of-the-art in 2009, as that solution is still some time off.

[stevelap]

Indeed. I think that there is some confusion floating around as people raise different points in various posts in several threads. An EVF, for example, is of course a live view device, although that term is usually taken to mean a live display on the rear LCD.

 

The problem with an optical accessory viewfinder such as those used on the D-Lux 4 and the just announced Olympus E-P1 is that it knows nothing of focus, so AF has to be relied upon if the user doesn't want to hold the camera out to check focus on the LCD (discounting the use of a tripod or other support). With manual focus of course the only options would be using the LCD or zone focussing.

 

Accessory or built-in EVF's, as we seem to be assuming that Leica will use for it's 'R solution', can solve that problem in that focus can be seen through them. The trouble there is that the jury still seems to be out on quality and many think that an EVF can't even come close in comparison to the best OVF's.

 

Time and technology marches on though, so perhaps by the time this new 'R solution' or Digilux is announced (2011?) EVF's might have developed sufficiently to be acceptable.

[rosuna]

T

There is nothing stopping Canon, Nikon and others from adding an integrated EVF or a clip on EVF at any time as the cameras already have live view. I'm sure we'll see accessory EVFs for the current cameras as some are now used for video. The cameras already have HDMI ports. It would be a pretty simple matter to make an entirely EVF version of any of the live view DSLR models by simply leaving out the mirror and prism and replacing that with an EVF. I bet dollars to donuts that all manufacturers are designing cameras like this now as it is so simple and obvious

 

I don't even know if we are capable of imagining the possibilities of what can be achieved over the next 5-10 years.

 

The problem is the total size and cost of a mirror-based system. The most expensive components in a reflex camera is the pentaprism and mirror-related parts. Also the film transport parts, but you have replaced them by electronics in digital cameras. The mount-to-sensor distance is conditioned by the mirror and prism. Therefore, if you want take advantage of the size and cost of a mirror-less reflex system you have to change the mount. So you must to change the system.

 

At this moment the EVIL solutions are not good enough. On the one hand, you get smaller sizes and lower costs. On the other hand you lose AF speed and image quality in framing. The fast pace in electronic improvements will change this soon.

 

In my opinion this mirror-less solution would have made perfect sense for the S system. Leica could be offering a large format at lower prices, in camera bodies of reduced size. But they didn't.

[wildlightphoto]

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... and consider that maybe, just maybe, that 'mirrored finders' are going the way of the dinosaur.

 

As much as I like the SL's viewfinder I have to agree. A viewfinder based on the actual sensor making the image eliminates a lot of calibration issues as well, not to mention replacing the Rube Goldberg phase-detect AF systems with the ability to use any point in the picture area to focus, manually or automatically.

 

At the present stage of technological development I would not be happy if an EVF were the only option but consider what digital cameras were like ten years ago and imagine similar development of the EVF.

[rosuna]

Are people still proposing that Live View is an acceptable choice ONLY for an "SLR"?

 

So, you have to hold the camera, and lens, at arms length? Really?

 

The Panasonic G1 has an electronic ocular viewfinder, and it is very good.

 

In any case, for studio work and remote shooting it is not a problem at all.

[rosuna]

I haven't yet seen an EVF I like on a still camera, but one can always hope.

 

 

Minolta cameras had a monochrome viewfinder pretty good.

 

The Panasonic G1 and GH1 have a color EVF much better yet.

 

Development of these devices will not stop here...

[artur5]

It seems to exist a consensus here about current EVF being unsatisfactory for an R solution. Yes, surely in the near-middle future they will be good enough -if not great- but we're talking 'years' here. Given Leica's production schedules, isn't far fetched to place the R-EVIL solution 2 or 3 years ahead. In the meantime, what ?

I guess the R10 of many Leica-R users well be called 5DII - at least until 2011, if not more...

[AlanG]

The Panasonic G1 has an electronic ocular viewfinder, and it is very good.

 

In any case, for studio work and remote shooting it is not a problem at all.

 

I'd say, think about it for a while. Then make a list of the possible advantages and disadvantages of one system vs. the other.

 

I have a Konica/Minolta A2 that has a 1 megapixel EVF (Yes with an eyepiece - I had no idea that people were clueless about what an EVF was.) And it scans at 60 frames per second. It also has an image amplified b/w mode in very dim light. The finder can swivel up for low level work - only horizontally. This is several years old technology and it works pretty well.

 

What is also nice is that you can set the menu or review the images at eye level on the 1 megapixel screen so they are quite magnified and detailed. The EVF can be set to briefly display the photo that you just shot, so you can immediately tell if you captured the expression or framing you were after without removing the camera from your eye.

 

The AF has two modes. Either lets you choose any spot on the screen for focus point selection. One mode refocuses the camera each time you press the shutter. The other mode constantly tracks the subject keeping it in focus at all times. You can even see the the focus point moving across the frame as it tracks the subject. This constant tracking does not work too well but with newer technology this might be much better. It has a magnified mode for MF focusing, where as soon as you touch the shutter release it toggles back to full screen mode.

 

The camera has a sensor on the front that turns it on when you hold it and it has a proximity sensor that turns the EVF on when you bring it to your eye. Both features help save power.

 

Overall it is not as good for action as an SLR's optical viewfinder mostly because the AF is not fast enough, not because the screen is poor. And it works much differently than an OVF so it takes some getting used to. But even this EVF beats an SLR in other ways and this camera is 5 years old. I can totally understand R users being concerned about not having the choice of an OVF because for some work, that will be a superior way to go. However the only way to judge the camera will be to try it when it finally comes out.

[mhoersch]

But that’s not the only alternative … When have you last looked through an EVF? The image in the EVF of a G1 is huge; its magnification equals that of a Nikon D3X. An EVF doesn’t have to be the black tunnel you remember from yesterday’s EVFs. Resolution could still be higher (even when the 1440.000 dots/480.000 pixels of the G1 EVF already deliver quite a lot of image detail), the speed of both the display panel and the image processor must be improved, and the dynamic range should be higher – although the latter would increase with the sensor’s dynamic range anyway. But if whatever Leica’s solution will turn out to be should use an EVF, it won’t have to rely on the state-of-the-art in 2009, as that solution is still some time off.

 

Thanks for the lecture! The last EVF I've looked through is that of the G1, and I find it absolutely terrible, thank you. If it's ok with you I would like to look at the object I want to photograph myself - not via an electronic depiction of it.

 

If Leica wants to stop making cameras to use their lenses with - that's their choice. Mine will be to leave Leica, it's as simple as that.

[andybarton]

IMO the if the G1 EVF is the current state of the art, then it will be decades before they make an acceptable one

 

Unless the example I played with was a Friday special, which I doubt.

[R10dreamer]

In my opinion the only reason the R8/R9's didn't become a profitable seller was because they weren't autofocus. The 35mm world is not the MF or LF world. 35mm ecompasses action, animals - ie potentially moving as well as static subjects. LF and MF are primarily for studio, landscape, product and architectural photography. Items that don't move. If Leica would have made the R8's and 9' with autofocus I think they would have had a tremendously successful run with those cameras.

 

So, they now can do autofocus, they can do FF, they can do 20+ mgpxls. Most people will want their glass more than their 8fps or million option settings. Leica autofocus with their reputation with glass and backward R lens capabilities would sell way better than their R8's and R9's even if they were priced a little more than the DX3's. I really think they have made a misguided assumption based on a poorly planned out strategy of non-autofocus 8's and 9's.

 

My .02

 

GD Whalen Photography

[rosuna]

IMO the if the G1 EVF is the current state of the art, then it will be decades before they make an acceptable one

 

Unless the example I played with was a Friday special, which I doubt.

 

I don't think on decades...

 

... months I would say...

 

... technology is changing so fast...

[stevelap]

IMO the if the G1 EVF is the current state of the art, then it will be decades before they make an acceptable one

 

Unless the example I played with was a Friday special, which I doubt.

 

To be fair Andy, live-view technology (which is what makes EVF's viable) and display technology (eg OLED) is advancing very quickly. So there is at least hope that EVF's will be much better in two-years time.

[Jamie Roberts]

2 years time? Sheesh this is annoying.

 

Why shouldn't I just buy a D3x and convert my R lenses now and leave Leica out of it now?

 

You get focus confirmation in the camera, you get 20+mp, no, you don't get DMR colour (!!!), but you can essentially many of the key lenses (not the R19 without shaving the lens shroud and not the 35 Lux, which is a pity). You get double the resolving power of a DMR (most of which will get thrown away for print, but still )

 

So overall for the price I paid for a DMR/R9 I could have a D3x that would work with a converted 19 (maybe) 35 (Cron) 50 Lux, 80 Lux, 100 APO and 180 Elmarit APO...

 

And it will work with my Nikkors...

 

Leica zooms won't work though, evidently.... hmmmm, so even this isn't a full answer.

[mgcd]

2 years time? Sheesh this is annoying.

 

Why shouldn't I just buy a D3x and convert my R lenses now and leave Leica out of it now?

...(snipped)

 

That's what I've been thinking about but to complicate matters for me I still have more R8 bodies beside the DMR. Thus moving to Nikon creates a dilemma in that sense. Using an adapter with Canon may be the route to go for me. I still love my DMR but now I would like something lighter to carry around (DSLR). But the overwhelming sense that I have wasted my investment and time in Leica, since it abandoned the R, is spurring me to look for options.

[AlanG]

For a test, I mounted a loupe over the LCD. I wanted to see what it would be like to use this as a simulated EVF in live view mode. Because it is a 3" LCD, the Loupe could only show about 1/2 - 2/3rds of it. So I was seeing only some of the 920,000 pixels. This produced a very clear, bright, extremely large and detailed picture. It is much better than using the OVF in some ways. I would have no problem working this way for a lot of types of shooting if it were more ergonomic and showed the entire image. But even with this big protrusion, I could hold, brace and shoot pretty effectively. If it had an automatic toggle between magnified and full view by touching the shutter release, MF focusing would be very accurate and quick. And this is not a souped up fast scanning EVF but it is very bright, contrasty, and has good color. So I have to conclude that a good usable EVF is doable with today's technology. Probably not so usable for sports and other high speed action shooters, although we'd have to see. But for normal paced and static work, no problem.

 

I've attached some photos of the taped loupe along with pictures that show how small the EVF is on the A2. (Although a larger version would probably result in a larger brighter image.)

 

Regarding waiting for Leica to give you a solution... since they have not given any road map, if you need a new camera to shoot digitally with the R lenses, getting a Canon body would probably be the way to go. You could always sell it later or use it as a backup if Leica comes out with something you like more.

 

I'm sure some good accessory EVFs will come out for live view DSLRs just because they are being used for video.

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[dcoombs]

In my opinion the only reason the R8/R9's didn't become a profitable seller was because they weren't autofocus.

GD Whalen Photography

 

While I haven't used the R series, I think there is a lot of merit to this view.

 

Two reasons. One - the market and competition is/was already there. And Two - much, though not all, of Leica's client base is getting older and for them focusing is more difficult. AF would have been a boon. Its absence moved the users to other brands.

 

Doug