kenneth Posted June 14, 2009 Share #181 Posted June 14, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Yawn. Well said- I glad I don't have that amount of encumbrances Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 Hi kenneth, Take a look here Challenges for new Leica CEO. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
kenneth Posted June 14, 2009 Share #182 Posted June 14, 2009 I suggest you go and evaluate the secondhand market value of your investment .....say £5 to £7K . If Leica went back to where it was three years ago when Hermes had a problem with the banks I was told by several dealers that my kit was soon to be worthless, and I could expect no new products from Leica. Happily this did not happen, as Dr Kaufmann stepped in and injected his money. I hope Leica never return to this situation, remain healthy and protect my investment in the process! Fortunately I bought them second hand so the product had already devalued from new Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted June 14, 2009 Share #183 Posted June 14, 2009 Anyone ever seen the film "Groundhog Day"? You go away for the weekend, and it's like the last 48 hours never happened... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 14, 2009 Share #184 Posted June 14, 2009 Seems pretty one sided to me. Can't really say that I see a discussion here. Frank presents the idea and his logic to defend it. Replies with derision, and insults and every possible reason why its' the most ridiculous thing ever posted. Am I missing something? In fairness there are a few posters to this thread that haven't been insulting. Bill you might want to take the Gentleman out and just use the Amateur and Leica Lout. Just a suggestion Interesting edit, "Craftsman". I see you are not above the odd insult yourself, albeit as an afterthought. You should recall the defintion of a Gentleman - "one who is never unconsciously rude". Have you something material to add to this debate, or are you just trying to stir? Would you like to share with the group what part of Frank's logic is quite so unassailable? It all reads like ill-considered pie in the sky to me, and I am exercising my right to say so; YMMV. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted June 14, 2009 Share #185 Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Forum Management and Moderator I shall be communicating my thoughts to Rudolf Spiller (M product manager) and have made contact with Leica UK already who are setting up the call. If anything comes out of it I'll advise.. I guess people will not mind if I suggest putting the M9 full frame, the 12, 15 mm rumoured M lenses and the R10 on hold until the new Viso is fully investigated! Hi Frank, Rudy Spiller is the CEO... who did you speak to at Leica UK?? Cheers. The other thread seems to have come to a strangely abrupt end... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 14, 2009 Share #186 Posted June 14, 2009 ...You go away for the weekend, and it's like the last 48 hours never happened... Pity i had to stay home, each time i got a mail it was the same story: Viso or EVF, EVF + Viso, why not an EVFlex when we are at that? I guess my grand childen will react the same way as my daughter the first time she used my R4s viewfinder: Wow! i did not know it could be that bright! Funny that it was considered rather dim 20 years ago. How nice looked the OVFs of the Leicaflex and the Contarex then. Even the Contaflex had a bright one if memory serves. And you call EVFs a progress folks? It's nothing but a compromise (if any) that Leica can offer to those who don't want to be bothered by stop down metering that's all. Compromise with IR filters, compromise with EVFs, looks like the only way to enjoy (!) our Leicas is to accept compromises nowadays. Not sure this will last much longer as far as i'm concerned. (end of rant) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 14, 2009 Share #187 Posted June 14, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Most people who own an 'M8 and a bunch of lenses' won't have anything they can use with your new Visioflex, so they'll have to buy new lenses - newly designed ones or old Visioflex lenses. How often do you see Visioflex lenses on the used market? I've just checked with Ffordes and they have none for sale. Any new lenses will be expensive - or do you propose that Leica also sell them at cost as you proposed they do with the Visioflex earlier? On the other hand, if you want Leica glass and cheap, you buy a Canon 1000D - £400, a Canon to R adaptor - say £20, and a Leica 28mm Elmarit - say £200 used, or a 180mm Leica R lens - say £300. That's £600-700 in total. Some very good points ...so it means my kit must be worth more than I thought on the secondhand market. Can you please tell me where you source your photographic stuff: > You are you telling me that I can buy a new Canon 1000D that is a digital SLR (with I guess same quality I have become used to with Leica M) for £400, > An adapter £20 ...sounds good also > I can buy a new 180mm Leica "R" lens for £300 ( The price at SH Photo is 3699 €uros with a 65% discount apparently) > I do not see the point of the 28mm Elmarit "R" as I have a 21mm M (which is 28mm on M8) > How do you propose I handle the Bellows issue. Let's get it clear I have a Viso, I have old lenses and I can do what I want in normal "M" photography plus Macro with the bellows that I have and Telephoto with the Telyt . The issue is what can Leica's CEO say to a new uncommitted user to achieve what I can do today with DIGITAL Leica equipment. What you suggest above I believe allows me to pickup secondhand kit and use it on a Canon amateur camera body. The Leica "R" lenses are history and will soon not be available I believe. ...that is why you are quoting a mere £300 for a secondhand 180mm "R" lens . My view is that unless Leica do something to add to the "M" lens family to deliver a Macro and Telephoto capability then the "M" range will be a nice adjunct to someone elses digital SLR strategy . This will attract professionals only. I do not see uncommitted amateur new users buying Leica "M" and they will not want "S2" either......sine the bulk of "M" cameras and "R" cameras have gone towards amateurs as I understand it then this has to be of concern to anyone who has a significant investment in Leica kit.... This is the key point Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 14, 2009 Share #188 Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Forum Management and Moderator Hi Frank, Rudy Spiller is the CEO... who did you speak to at Leica UK?? Cheers. The other thread seems to have come to a strangely abrupt end... Sorry I meant Stefan Daniel (M Product Mgr) ...my mistake. I spoke to Richard who actually want you and me to get into contact...Let's discuss. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 14, 2009 Share #189 Posted June 14, 2009 Pity i had to stay home, each time i got a mail it was the same story: Viso or EVF, EVF + Viso, why not an EVFlex when we are at that? I guess my grand childen will react the same way as my daughter the first time she used my R4s viewfinder: Wow! i did not know it could be that bright! Funny that it was considered rather dim 20 years ago. How nice looked the OVFs of the Leicaflex and the Contarex then. Even the Contaflex had a bright one if memory serves. And you call EVFs a progress folks? It's nothing but a compromise (if any) that Leica can offer to those who don't want to be bothered by stop down metering that's all. Compromise with IR filters, compromise with EVFs, looks like the only way to enjoy (!) our Leicas is to accept compromises nowadays. Not sure this will last much longer as far as i'm concerned. (end of rant) You are getting it! If this does continue then some of us will just sell their kit and leave leica. > I still have a great Beaulieu movie camera that cost several thousand pounds but today is a museum piece. and can be bought for maybe £100 as a thing to put on a stand for show. > Bill and his "R7" and a host of lenses has this weekend lost money I guess (I hope not!) and he can probably enjoy a fabulous camera with its lenses for as long as he wants to buy, and then have processed his film . He then has the wait for the negatives or slides and thenn he goes through the fun of having them printed ...or he scans them . > Most people I believe are moving to digtal and they have no offer except Leica M8 and this cannot do Macro or Telphoto....its that simple! The question is can the company survive long term with only the "M"...I sure hope so! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted June 14, 2009 Share #190 Posted June 14, 2009 Sorry I meant Stefan Daniel (M Product Mgr) ...my mistake. I spoke to Richard who actually want you and me to get into contact...Let's discuss. OK that makes sense, I'll step out at this point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted June 14, 2009 Share #191 Posted June 14, 2009 How do people get access to such high people within Leica so quickly? If I phoned Milton Keynes, with an idea as to how to run the company, and asked to speak to Rudy Spiller, I'd be given the "They'll call you back" treatment. Kudos to Frank. Obviously it pays to have those CEO to CEO contacts. Make sure you let us know how the conversation goes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craftsman Posted June 14, 2009 Share #192 Posted June 14, 2009 Interesting edit, "Craftsman". I see you are not above the odd insult yourself, albeit as an afterthought. You should recall the defintion of a Gentleman - "one who is never unconsciously rude". Have you something material to add to this debate, or are you just trying to stir? Would you like to share with the group what part of Frank's logic is quite so unassailable? It all reads like ill-considered pie in the sky to me, and I am exercising my right to say so; YMMV. Regards, Bill No Bill, I have nothing material to add to this one sided slug fest and I'm not trying to stir anything . I do like to hear others opinions though. No intention to insult you either. One definition of a gentleman is "A well mannered and considerate man". I wasn't seeing that, hence the suggestion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenneth Posted June 14, 2009 Share #193 Posted June 14, 2009 I think Frank is pitching for the position of agony aunt for the forum Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBA Posted June 15, 2009 Share #194 Posted June 15, 2009 What a thread! Frank, you certainly are tenacious, I'll give you that. How do you take photos digitally with your R7 ....> Do you continue to use film? Wait for them to be developed and then scan them? Is this what people mean when they talk about excellent workflow with a Leica? That's exactly what I do. No digital camera will ever give me Kodachrome or Velvia slides, which collectively I shoot at the rate of about 20-30 rolls per month with Leica M and R cameras. I'm not in the market for digital. My photos are the return on investment. I don't worry about the resale value of my kit. There's plenty of Visoflex gear on the shelves of shops here in Tokyo, and there it sits. Not much demand for a concept that's had its day. And for closeups, what about the 90 macro? Pretty ingenious solution, no? That's my 2 yen, for what it's worth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted June 15, 2009 Share #195 Posted June 15, 2009 This is probably the most bizarre thread I have read in the entire forum -- I can't believe it is still going! Thousands and thousands of words. Plenty of sound and fury, signifying -- what? From financial management to calls for a new Visoflex (surely a dead duck if there ever was one) through to "Riga Death Race" (what the hell's that) to the whore's dilemma, to (no) new R10, to King Canute! I am sure Leica's CEO will be taking it all very seriously. Yeah, right. Actually, King Canute probably does provide a useful example for present and budding CEOs. But it's one of those areas which gets confused: Did Canute really foolishly think he could command the sea, as many people tell it; or did he reprove his foolish courtiers who flattered him that he could command the sea? In the same way, today's CEOs cannot stand still against relentless forces -- resistance is futile -- they have to be flexible. The core challenge for Leica is how to do this while remaining faithful to its principles and maintaining market appeal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted June 15, 2009 Share #196 Posted June 15, 2009 It's a bit like a car crash on the motorway, you know you shouldn't look but you just can't help yourself! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 15, 2009 Share #197 Posted June 15, 2009 Seems pretty one sided to me. Can't really say that I see a discussion here. Frank presents the idea and his logic to defend it. Replies with derision, and insults and every possible reason why its' the most ridiculous thing ever posted. Am I missing something? In fairness there are a few posters to this thread that haven't been insulting. Bill you might want to take the Gentleman out and just use the Amateur and Leica Lout. Just a suggestion Thank you for this, I really am trying to keep focussed on the issue It is not helpful for some to ridicule the idea, and the logic , then get personal with meaningless quips. In the case of Bill his profile lists a M7 & M2 plus a IID (whatever that is) and a DLux4. I now understand that he has apparently a R7, a bunch of "R" lenses.....from Leica. He says that he is happy with this kit and I am sure he is...it is wonderful optics and quality cameras BUT it is NOT DIGITAL. He says very forcibly that he does not like the M8...never did, etc etc...yet that is the only digital camera offered today by Leica at this quality level ( I discount DLux 4 and Digilux .) This last weekend despite a commonly held belief last week ( see David - Dfarkas #119 - Page 6, excellent review) we learn that R10 is dead. Bill says he does not care as he was not going this route So I can only conclude that Bill is suggesting that the new CEO should push Leica towrds Analogue for its future.......or possibly buy secondhand "R" kit and adapters to use on Canon digital SLR bodies. I personally do not see this as viable to secure the Leica future (My opinion) I note that many people have stated they do NOT care about Leica's future as a company (I believe that Bill is part of this group). It is a short sighted view for reasons already made several times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 15, 2009 Share #198 Posted June 15, 2009 Fortunately I bought them second hand so the product had already devalued from new Well done...do you plan to get new kit at any time? I guess you will rest assured that parts will be available and that service can be obtained via the aftermarket if the fortunes of Leica went down the tubes. Personally I would like Leica to grow from today's base that has benefited having under Dr Kaufmann already turned things around significantly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted June 15, 2009 Share #199 Posted June 15, 2009 So I can only conclude that Bill is suggesting that the new CEO should push Leica towrds Analogue for its future.......or possibly buy secondhand "R" kit and adapters to use on Canon digital SLR bodies. I personally do not see this as viable to secure the Leica future (My opinion) I note that many people have stated they do NOT care about Leica's future as a company (I believe that Bill is part of this group). It is a short sighted view for reasons already made several times. Bill has already stated that he is waiting for a properly sorted, full frame digital M. (As am I, btw) (And a IID is a screw thread Leica from the 30s, btw) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 15, 2009 Share #200 Posted June 15, 2009 So I can only conclude that Bill is suggesting that the new CEO should push Leica towrds Analogue for its future...... That is not what Bill is saying. Bill is stating how _he_ feels about the current Leica range. There's a world of difference between what is best for a company and the desires of an individual. Something that you seem to miss. If the revised Visioflex is such a great idea, a sure fire winner, if Leica prove not to be interested, why not develop it yourself? You seem to have a background in electronics and I'm sure you could raise the venture capital once you explained how the device worked and it's intended market. Design and production could take place in the far east at a relatively low cost. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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