barjohn Posted July 1, 2009 Share #381 Posted July 1, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) A full frame M would create real buzz for the company and given that most of us know that it will probably cost more than an M8.2 would not cannibalize M8.2 sales but merely move the M8.2 as the entry level M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 Hi barjohn, Take a look here S2 under pricing pressure. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
luigi bertolotti Posted July 1, 2009 Share #382 Posted July 1, 2009 A full frame M would create real buzz for the company and given that most of us know that it will probably cost more than an M8.2 would not cannibalize M8.2 sales but merely move the M8.2 as the entry level M. That's reasonable: for them, there are of course 2 basic issues : 1) Capability to engineer a FF RF without a too revolutionary design and with compatibility with current lenses set (this is the only absolute MUST : customers could even accept something like a "M5 vs. M4" style/dimensioning) 2) Projected sales figures <----> pricing : if there would be the "financial space" to price it say +20% of current M8.2 while, at the same time, lowering 15% the street price of M8.2, this could decide a decent number of "early" M8 owners to buy, and would maintain a good appeal to M8.2... a rosy picture for Leica, but different, and worst, scenarios could also be plotted... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 1, 2009 Share #383 Posted July 1, 2009 And it would push down used M8 prices, which is a good thing for Leica as well, as it would generate new potential customers for other, more expensive M products. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted July 1, 2009 Share #384 Posted July 1, 2009 The annual report on all of Germany is out already, and it is not pretty. See WSJ hereGermany Can Change to Confront Export Slump -- but Will It? - WSJ.com I hope the very wealthy Dr. K can stay true to his comment that he won't need to make money on the S2 for five years. BTW, if Dr. K can wait 5 years, then he can afford to price it anyway he cares. If the files beat Phase 65+ he can price it at $30+ and say the S2 is a bargain. Using the Apple analogy, I do not expect him to buy market share with low pricing. I further suspect that if Dr. K didn't think he could beat Phase One in the DxO Mark sensor ratings, he would have purchased Phase One. We must wait until September to see if he was right. in hopes to bring this thread back from m-land.. I am worried now that s.daniels has stated that they see the s2 as being comparable to the 50mp hasselbald...in image quality and thus in price. I will have to see the files to believe that..I wonder which they are going to release first, a file or the price? I fear if they release the price first and it is high with no file to back it up.. it will turn folks away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted July 1, 2009 Share #385 Posted July 1, 2009 in hopes to bring this thread back from m-land..I am worried now that s.daniels has stated that they see the s2 as being comparable to the 50mp hasselbald...in image quality and thus in price. I will have to see the files to believe that..I wonder which they are going to release first, a file or the price? I fear if they release the price first and it is high with no file to back it up.. it will turn folks away. Leica can make any "claim" they want but 37.5 mgpxl's is not 50 mgpxl's. If they push that people will think either that they are fools or Leica thinks we are fools. There are too many analogies to this and all of them are embarrassingly stupid. 37.5 does not equal 50. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted July 1, 2009 Share #386 Posted July 1, 2009 Leica can make any "claim" they want but 37.5 mgpxl's is not 50 mgpxl's. If they push that people will think either that they are fools or Leica thinks we are fools. There are too many analogies to this and all of them are embarrassingly stupid. 37.5 does not equal 50. We heard similar arguments before the DMR's files were released. Let's look at pictures before we decide the veracity of Leica's claim. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted July 1, 2009 Share #387 Posted July 1, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) 37,5MP are smaller than 50MP but say very little about the IQ - and it's about IQ, not image-size. A better lens can produce superior IQ with a smaller sensor - especially at this point (83lp/mm with high contrast @ 36x49mm!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 1, 2009 Share #388 Posted July 1, 2009 Folks I have run tests on the Phase backs and the difference between 22, 31,39,40 MPX (P25+,p30+,P40+, P45+) are certainly not worldly at all and even compared to the P65 + they are not worldly difference. It is there but honestly once you hit this kind of sensor size your already in a different ball game. This is NOT 35mm and the MPX war. all of these backs are so good that anyone of them will outperform most folks needs. Obviously the P65+ has the goods in the most MPX and you can see it but better get your strong lupe out.. Obviously between the P25+ and P65+ you will see it more readily but anything in between they all compare very well among the brands. The S2 should be fine and honestly not a concern about the image quality. That should be the least of the worries, It should perform very well with it's cousins. It's everything else that should be on folks minds. The bad news today is the Phase and Leica alliance just tanked. No C1 for the S2 which honestly just leaves me out of the running. http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=864286 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted July 1, 2009 Share #389 Posted July 1, 2009 The bad news today is the Phase and Leica alliance just tanked. No C1 for the S2 British Journal of Photography - Future uncertain for Leaf's AFi Yes, that's surprising and not good news at all for the S2. What RAW conversion and tethering software are Leica going to bundle now? Relying on Adobe Camera Raw and/or Apple's Aperture supporting the S2 isn't going to cut it at this level. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted July 1, 2009 Share #390 Posted July 1, 2009 Yes that it bad news, I hope Leica and Phase stay together on the successor to the M8. Leica is not a RAW software developer maybe they can strike up an alliance with someone else. With the S2 release so near perhaps they already have that in place. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
like_no_other Posted July 1, 2009 Share #391 Posted July 1, 2009 Yes, that's surprising and not good news at all for the S2. What RAW conversion and tethering software are Leica going to bundle now? Relying on Adobe Camera Raw and/or Apple's Aperture supporting the S2 isn't going to cut it at this level. C1 is one of the most overrated software products in the world. Anyway, if P1 can support Leica compact cameras they will as well support Leica S2 or any other camera. If they don't because they see S2 as serious competition - no lost. There are really enough RAW converters around that support all manufacturers' cameras. I think the article is more about the last year announced sales and service partnership. Better to bury this before market launch of S2 and avoid dealing with bad P1 support in the first year and changing afterwards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 1, 2009 Share #392 Posted July 1, 2009 My real worry is if Leica does there own and we all now this software takes years to get rid of all the bugs and actually have a well functioning program. C1, Phocus, Lightroom, Adobe and every software made on the planet takes time and we all have experienced new software in the beginning of there release. New Camera, Now software and New way of service and repair leaves a lot of IF's. Sorry to be a downer but this makes the risk factor go up. I hope they sort all of this out. Needless to say i pushed hard for C1 to be the program, I always liked the raw processing. Bad news for me and thoughts of the S2. But I will remain a optimist for Leica's sake. I like these folks but I just can't take the risks anymore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted July 1, 2009 Share #393 Posted July 1, 2009 The bad news today is the Phase and Leica alliance just tanked. No C1 for the S2 which honestly just leaves me out of the running. British Journal of Photography - Future uncertain for Leaf's AFi That's why I kept thinking that Leica is much better off positioning the S2 as a "larger than Full-frame" system instead of touting this medium format rubbish from a marketing standpoint. Photographers would have then drawn up their own conclusions with respect for the need of any additional format larger than the new "Leica format". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
like_no_other Posted July 1, 2009 Share #394 Posted July 1, 2009 They shouldn't waste the time to make their own software product - that's correct - and let the people use what they already use (lightroom, aperture, etc.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 1, 2009 Share #395 Posted July 1, 2009 That's why I kept thinking that Leica is much better off positioning the S2 as a "larger than Full-frame" system instead of touting this medium format rubbish from a marketing standpoint. Photographers would have then drawn up their own conclusions with respect for the need of any additional format larger than the new "Leica format". Could not agree more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 1, 2009 Share #396 Posted July 1, 2009 They shouldn't waste the time to make their own software product - that's correct - and let the people use what they already use (lightroom, aperture, etc.) The issue is no one makes a better camera profile than C1. I have had them all and almost every camera out there and C1 still is the clear winner when it comes to Raw processing. Obviously we disagree on C1 but final results are what I judge this by. Also any MF camera needs to tether and i never seen anything better in tethering than C1 with my Phase back. This is a biggy for MF shooters Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
like_no_other Posted July 1, 2009 Share #397 Posted July 1, 2009 The issue is no one makes a better camera profile than C1. I have had them all and almost every camera out there and C1 still is the clear winner when it comes to Raw processing. Obviously we disagree on C1 but final results are what I judge this by. I think there's no reason to argue about user intefaces and workflows. This depends to a large degree on personal preferences. The quality of RAW results depends on the camera, maybe. What I found out is that different products use different presets that fit personal preferences good or not. By changing parameters I can get the most files look equal detailed etc. with different converters as long as I don't use small business/exotic one man company converters that destroy picture quality. Starting at these equal made pictures we can talk about quality of sharpening and denoising functions. But I think this leads to personal decision of workflow preferences again since for maximum quality sharpening and denoising we could use specialized software products that are better than any RAW converter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted July 1, 2009 Share #398 Posted July 1, 2009 Yes, that's surprising and not good news at all for the S2. What RAW conversion and tethering software are Leica going to bundle now? Relying on Adobe Camera Raw and/or Apple's Aperture supporting the S2 isn't going to cut it at this level. Seems like Leica are discovering, rather late in the day, that these alliances are not all they're cracked up to be. Lots of enthusiastic noise followed by something-for-nothing posturing at the feeding trough. Imacon, Panasonic, Sinar and now Phase One. Leica have realised they need to develop their own electronics so maybe they need to do their own PP software as well. They could do worse than enlist the help of the likes of Sandy, Carl, Carsten and Jamie.... Fundamentally though, it's not the best news, IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted July 1, 2009 Share #399 Posted July 1, 2009 In the end, Leica might find it easier just to be a customer of Phase One rather than a strategic partner. The absence of proper C1 processing could be a factor in my purchasing decision on the S2. I know just how irritating it is that C1 does not process Ricoh GX200 DNG's well and I have to use SilkyPix for GX200 and C1 for M8. If say I have to learn and use a third program, that would be a no-no, apart from the fact that when traveling, I only have a 64GB SSD MacAir with me. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted July 1, 2009 Share #400 Posted July 1, 2009 My issue was/is not with the IQ but with the quality of the marketing strategy. Leica can claim that their 37.5 is equal to someone else's 50 but it is silly UNLESS you are getting ready to price your 37.5 equal to their 50. Which is exactly what I suspect Leica is doing. And that to me is a huge mistake. $30,000 for this camera just won't fly. I don't think $20,000 will fly. I think their market will take off if they can keep this camera to $15,000 or less. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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