mmm... Posted March 25, 2009 Share #1 Posted March 25, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I've no idea why Leica only chose to publish the the announcement in German on their web site ... perhaps the rest of the world is not important and don't need to know. Read this ... Leica Camera AG - Leica R Spiegelreflexsystem In short, it says the technical innovation from the S2 will form the foundation of a new camera system in the works, the R system remains on Leica's web site simply because some dealers still maintain some stock and there's an active second hand market of R products blah blah. Contrary to common belief, now I think the R is completely dead, whatever Leica is working on, it won't be called R10 ... and it'll not work with the R lenses natively. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Hi mmm..., Take a look here The R Is Completely Dead IMO. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
adan Posted March 25, 2009 Share #2 Posted March 25, 2009 Babelfish translation: "March 19, 2009 Over 40 years the Leica R mirror reflex system formed an important component of the Leica of product program. Affected by the digital development in the past years, the sales figures for Leica R cameras themselves and objectives clearly reduces. Thus no more economic basis exists to leave the Leica R-system further in the product program. At the beginning of March 2009 was communicated to the Leica photo specialized trade that the production of the mirror reflex camera Leica R 9 as well as the R-objectives was stopped of the Leica Camera AG. The technological innovations from the again-developed professional system camera Leica S2 will form a basis to work on new system approaches. The market is informed at given time. The products of the Leica of R-system are still available in some Leica photo specialist shops. Besides an active using trade confirms the value stability of the Leica of products. Therefore the Internet appearance of the Leica of R-system remains insisting on the Leica homepage further." -------------------- The Doubting Thomases who use and love the R-system will refuse to believe this unless they can touch the corpse for themselves - as you will hear! They will parse every word to find imagined loopholes that "prove" there will be a 24 x 36 "S2-junior" on which they can mount R lenses and get at least R9 functionality. Personally I think they might be able to get Canon 5D functionality - the lenses will mount via adapter but will only offer stopped-down aperture priority or full manual exposure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted March 25, 2009 Share #3 Posted March 25, 2009 Welcome to the forum, mmm. The demise of the R was announced on this forum (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/news/79615-002-leica-stopps-selling-r-system.html) and at a number of other sites--T.O.P. (End of the Line for the Leica R System?), Puts' Tao of Leica (Leica R9: obituary), dpreview (Leica ceases R-series production), etc. As you're aware, Leica closed out their stock of R bodies and lenses to SH Photo, who has been selling the merchandise at extremely low prices. I'm surprised that the announcement doesn't appear on Leica's English-language web pages, but the US arm of the company may not yet have decided how to handle the change. You and Andy aren't alone in your thinking. I'll spare you my reasoning, but much as I hate to say it, I also can't see any way that Leica could bring a competitive 35 mm format dSLR to market. Anyway, now that you're here, pick another Leica and stick around! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted March 25, 2009 Share #4 Posted March 25, 2009 Oh no, not another repeat thread......please. This has all been discussed ad nauseum in the thread linked by Howard and also in the Digital forum http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/79648-end-leica-r9-r-lenses.html. Is there really a need for another thread!? Mmm, there is a search facility on the forum which may help in cases like this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted March 25, 2009 Share #5 Posted March 25, 2009 I think a new mirror-based reflex system for 24x36 format isn't a good idea, but that was Leica's commitment... IMHO, Mike Jonhston is right here: End of the Line for the Leica R System? A "true Leica" development in the Micro 4/3 territory would be far more profitable... The M system could evolve towards mirro-less full-time live view cameras, with AF based on "in-lens" micro motors. The S2 is a good "classical" reflex system, and enough, if the price is "right". A R digital complete system is expensive to develop, distribute and support worldwide. How many units should be sold for getting some profit? The target market is very large, but even considering it, Leica cannot compete against Sony, Canon or Nikon in their territory... The R system never was a sales success for Leica (How many current R users out there? They would be the first and unconditional buyers of the R10). They must look for "niches" (smaller segments in the market with no direct competition -perfect sustitutives-, like the M system or the S system). Of course, Leica knows better how many resources they have and how the market is and will be in the coming years... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted March 25, 2009 Share #6 Posted March 25, 2009 If the S2 is priced in the range between Nikon D3 and D3x (as suggested a few weeks ago) Leica may not need to continue the R system but could do miniS and mediumS to fill the Canon 5D market and Nikon D3 market. Looking at the MF market and the price drop there, the ideal of having a S2 system high up there and an R10 system in the middle might be an obsolete idea (though it was right 9-12 months ago). Also, things might not be exactly as they seem. Look at World Press Photo and other competitions, and you will note that the majority these days are from pro's shooting Canon 5D and similar semi-pro cameras. Lighter, less expensive, more compact than the heavy "pro cameras" as Mark III and D3x. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 25, 2009 Share #7 Posted March 25, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...I think they might be able to get Canon 5D functionality - the lenses will mount via adapter but will only offer stopped-down aperture priority or full manual exposure. AE exposure works fine with the 5D at f/4 and wider apertures. If Leica wants to sell an FF DSLR, it will have to allow for AE exposure and full aperture metering with ROM legacy lenses IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 25, 2009 Share #8 Posted March 25, 2009 If the S2 is priced in the range between Nikon D3 and D3x (as suggested a few weeks ago) Leica may not need to continue the R system... How could a Leica MF camera be cheaper than a Mamya? Means $15,000 at least IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimF Posted March 25, 2009 Share #9 Posted March 25, 2009 The M system could evolve towards mirro-less full-time live view cameras, with AF based on "in-lens" micro motors. Pass the sick bag! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 25, 2009 Share #10 Posted March 25, 2009 I think if you look a distance ahead, the concept of mirror based SLRs will be obsolete. Perhaps they will just remain in some MF and pro models. Manufacturing economics and increased functionality will be the driving force towards EVF systems. And I really don't know what technology they are talking about from the S-2 that can be moved to a smaller camera. Is single point AF such a big deal. Maybe it is how they have arranged the image processing, but the camera design is pretty straight forward. If I were Leica, this is what I'd be doing: I'd keep the M8.2 and perhaps update it in various small or even significant ways as is feasible. Maybe move that to full frame if an appropriate sensor becomes available. (Why else are the new wide angle M lenses full frame?) I'd develop a new system, preferably full frame, that uses an EVF, IS, and has new AF lenses. But this camera could also take the M and R lenses via adapters. Perhaps some of the M wide angles will work it, perhaps not. Perhaps they won't work on it until a suitable FF sensor comes out in the future. Meanwhile, they'll have new AF lenses. I don't see them coming out with a 4/3rds body as that would leave them uncompetitive in price with no clear way to distinguish themselves. I don't know how long it will be before the camera shutter becomes unnecessary, but once that happens, the cameras bodies will be mostly electronic devices with few or no moving parts. And they'll be vibration free and silent. This would give a platform with lens support to start with and would help it get out of the gate fast. After all, how many M users also have an SLR for use with long lenses and for other things that are not easy to do with an M? If Leica is planning anything like this, they'll be setting the stage for the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimF Posted March 25, 2009 Share #11 Posted March 25, 2009 Why else are the new wide angle M lenses full frame? I'd love to know why some people who shoot only digital seem uncomprehending that others may also shoot film, either in addition to digital or exclusively. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted March 25, 2009 Share #12 Posted March 25, 2009 Yes, forget the last 50+ years of M camera production, the millions of M cameras and their users, its all pixels now you know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 25, 2009 Share #13 Posted March 25, 2009 I'd love to know why some people who shoot only digital seem uncomprehending that others may also shoot film, either in addition to digital or exclusively. People still shoot film? I wasn't aware of that. I question if Leica feels that film users by itself is a large enough market for a small company to dedicate precious resources to. (Although at least the lens can be used on an M8.) Why do you think the R stopped selling? Do you see them making new lenses for that model even though many thousands of bodies are out there? Although some M users still have reasons to use film over an M8 - somewhat due to a lack of a hi res FF hi ISO M digital. Do you think there will ever be a really new Leica film model? All indications are that the M8 resuscitated lens sales and probably justified the development of the new lenses. The flip side of all those M film bodies being out there is that there also are a lot of lenses on the used market. I think when someone buys an expensive shiny new M8.2, getting some of the latest state of the art lenses follows. So you don't think these new lenses were designed at least with the hope that there will be a future FF M? I think the fact that there has not been one single Leica lens made for the 1.3 crop factor shows that Leica is open to the possibility that a full frame M digital may be doable someday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted March 25, 2009 Share #14 Posted March 25, 2009 The M system can be a valid platform for an hybrid system (traditional manual focus, rangefinder-based; and EVIL, AF): the same mount, the same mount-to-focal-plane distance... You don't need a new 24x36 EVIL system for that. It would interesting some Micro 4/3 development for less expensive cameras... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 25, 2009 Share #15 Posted March 25, 2009 And I really don't know what technology they are talking about from the S-2 that can be moved to a smaller camera. . Oh, not too,much - just a cut-down version of the sensor, the processor, the majority of the electronics, the flash system, a large part of the firmware, that is about all.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 25, 2009 Share #16 Posted March 25, 2009 Oh, not too,much - just a cut-down version of the sensor, the processor, the majority of the electronics, the flash system, a large part of the firmware, that is about all.... Yes but that is independent of the camera design and is part of simply coming up with digital imaging technology that is needed for any digital camera. They buy the sensors from Kodak, and may have something else in future smaller models. Maybe the Sony 24 meg FF CMOS. They are getting the image processor from Fujitsu aren't they? I doubt if they are making other electronic components themselves. The firmware is likely to be pretty different on every camera. They haven't figured out how to do TTL flash yet? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 25, 2009 Share #17 Posted March 25, 2009 The M system can be a valid platform for an hybrid system (traditional manual focus, rangefinder-based; and EVIL, AF): the same mount, the same mount-to-focal-plane distance... You don't need a new 24x36 EVIL system for that. I agree entirely, but when I suggested this in another thread I almost got run out of town on a rail - tarred and feathered too. So maybe they need to keep the old and make the new. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguewave Posted March 25, 2009 Share #18 Posted March 25, 2009 I wonder what a photographer like Gordon Parks might say to this crowd. Although he recently died at the age of 93, he still toted his old Nikon, filled with film, everywhere. For those of us that own & cherish our R9, R8 (I own 3), R7 and other other R bodies in the lineup, you guys don't get it. With these bodies & my R lenses, I'm sure that I could spend the rest of my life in the pursuit of excellence. Same with my film M's & lenses. Leica will hopefully design & sell leading edge products for image makers & designers. To be a fine artist, you don't need the bleeding edge, indeed the body of the most important, published & prized images still reside in the analog world. It ain't the numbers babe, it's the art. People buy all this expensive gear hoping that it will make them a fine photographer. I don't see the evidence to support that. Most of the great image makers can make magic on just about anything. Those of us that enjoy the privilege of using Leica lenses & bodies are keenly aware of their assets. Ownership or use isn't the determinant of fine imagery. Hard work, training & developing a talent is what produces enduring images, not the equipment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 25, 2009 Share #19 Posted March 25, 2009 I wonder what a photographer like Gordon Parks might say to this crowd. Although he recently died at the age of 93, he still toted his old Nikon, filled with film, everywhere. For those of us that own & cherish our R9, R8 (I own 3), R7 and other other R bodies in the lineup, you guys don't get it. With these bodies & my R lenses, I'm sure that I could spend the rest of my life in the pursuit of excellence. Same with my film M's & lenses. That is true and just about every photographer has probably felt this way whether with a Daguerrotype, wet collodian, dry plate, 3 shot color, dye transfer or the latest digital camera. I had a professor who thought "miniature" cameras such as Leicas were a joke and only let us shoot with view cameras. Most of those processes are still around and being used. If Mathew Brady came back to life and picked up a Gandolfi view camera and some b/w film in sheet holders, he'd have no trouble using it. I bet he might say, "I would have thought photography would have progressed a lot further than that over the past 140 years." Then you could show him a digital camera and see if he'd like to try it out. Photography has always been about advances in technology but that doesn't mean that you are compelled to change. I doubt if Leica would have much of a future as the "Gandofi" of 35mm cameras in the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 25, 2009 Share #20 Posted March 25, 2009 Yes but that is independent of the camera design and is part of simply coming up with digital imaging technology that is needed for any digital camera. They buy the sensors from Kodak, and may have something else in future smaller models. Maybe the Sony 24 meg FF CMOS. They are getting the image processor from Fujitsu aren't they? I doubt if they are making other electronic components themselves. The firmware is likely to be pretty different on every camera. They haven't figured out how to do TTL flash yet? And still, this is most of the development that is needed for the R10. A sleek body and the mechanicals and optics? Leica can do that with one hand tied behind their back. That is simply a transposition of the R9. The integration with the electronic part - that takes work and time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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