To Full Frame Or Not To Full Frame?

[adan]

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Hi, Guy! In good science you can't throw out the data you don't like. Unless you have evidence that that 10% is Dr. Kaufmann logging on under pseudonyms to skew the results (smiley face - smiley face!!), they are part of the opinion mix. This ain't Florida...

 

Neutral = "I don't care one way or the other about the crop factor" OR the less intense versions of "I would prefer it if it was available...ho-hum"

 

Between them, neutral and "I prefer 1.33x" dilute the thread a bit. What percent of posters (not posts) are saying "I won't buy a digital M until..." or "I am/will be getting out of Leica M unless..."?

 

80-90% would be significant, otherwise it's hardly the kind of market pressure that will move Leica - because there are also still those 19,885 users out there who aren't even on here posting.

 

-----------------------------------------

 

Edit: Yeah, Guy and Lars are probably right about a statement from Leica beyond what they've already said. Nikon was proclaiming the advantages of the DX format right up to the day they said "Oh, by the way, here's out FX-format D3!"

 

Sigh!

Edited March 15, 2009 by adan

[cj1]

If we had a full frame and no 1.33x crop then how many people would be saying they wanted the crop version? One could argue that there would not be so many posts about the subject as they are this way around. But you never know!

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[dpattinson]

Really, the only thing that matters is how many people would buy a FF M camera at a price that Leica can afford to sell it at.

 

I'm pretty happy with my M8, but I will definitely buy a FF M9, assuming it's at least as good image-wise as my M8 (and hopefully a bit better at higher iso's).

 

I'd say that Leica could rely on pretty much anyone who pre-ordered an M8 to do the same for a M9.

 

If they get the image quality right, it will only take a couple of examples before the 'must have best ever possible camera' buyers to follow. This is not a brand that really has to worry about price too much - it sits with high end audio equipment and the like. People don't buy it because it's affordable. In any case, there would soon be a used market of M9's at 2/3 the price anyway as there was with the M8.

 

Honestly, if they can do it technically - I think it's a no-brainer that it will sell. They can keep the 1.33 crop camera M8.x as an entry level model, everyone is happy.

[stunsworth]

If we had a full frame and no 1.33x crop then how many people would be saying they wanted the crop version?

 

Not many, but then if Leica were able to to fit the S2 sensor in an M body how many people would want the full frame sensor? And so it goes in. The world moves on and we run to keep up.

 

Do I want a full frame sensor? Yes. Do I _need_ one? The fact that I've used an M8 for nearly two and a half years in preference to the full frame DSLR that I also own would indicate not.

[gwelland]

... but then if Leica were able to to fit the S2 sensor in an M body how many people would want the full frame sensor? And so it goes in. The world moves on and we run to keep up.

 

Do I want a full frame sensor? Yes. Do I _need_ one? The fact that I've used an M8 for nearly two and a half years in preference to the full frame DSLR that I also own would indicate not.

 

I'm not sure that the analogy of putting the S2 sensor in an M camera is really valid. If anything it's just the same issue as a crop-M8 as in the lenses don't perform in the same manner as they used to, and were designed to do, on 36x24 film. I know that I'd personally prefer a 35 cron act like a true 35mm focal length with the same DoF/f-stop as it does with film. The issue is that an apparent focal length of 47mm (or <35mm with larger S2) will have different characteristics to a true 35mm.

 

I agree with the want vs need comment though.

[guywalder]

Hi, Guy! In good science you can't throw out the data you don't like. Unless you have evidence that that 10% is Dr. Kaufmann logging on under pseudonyms to skew the results (smiley face - smiley face!!), they are part of the opinion mix. This ain't Florida...

 

come on Aden, discarding the extreme outliers is a perfectly valid approach

Actually I was only having a (2nd) dig at Jaapv, who had made about 10% of the posts.

Other than what I said before about a 'few say this, a few say that' I would not presume to try any more detailed sort of analysis on a forum thread

[lars_bergquist]

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For me the single biggest concern is whether they can make a feasible upgrade for the M8 to a FF sensor.. I'd rather not have to sell it at what will likely be a massive loss and then have to turn around and buy a new M9 or what ever.. Not demanding that Leica does this, just hoping they can.

No way they can cram a FF sensor into the present M8 shell. The whole thing will have to be completely reorganized inside, after lots of components have been shrunk drastically. All this will no doubt be done sometime, but don't hold yout breath. In other words, don't expect an upgrade to the M8/M8.2.

 

The old man from the Age of Glass Plates

[Jamie Roberts]

Not many, but then if Leica were able to to fit the S2 sensor in an M body how many people would want the full frame sensor? And so it goes in. The world moves on and we run to keep up.

 

Do I want a full frame sensor? Yes. Do I _need_ one? The fact that I've used an M8 for nearly two and a half years in preference to the full frame DSLR that I also own would indicate not.

 

Yes, I like using my rangefinder more than a dSLR too. All that tells me is that I like a rangefinder better...

 

But for the love of pete (no offence to any actual pete here ) I want my 21mm Leica lens to *be* a 21mm Leica lens; why should it be a 28? I feel this all the more if I get to buy one of the new luxes!!

 

I'd love to be shooting more and more with my 35 Lux instead of my 24 Elmarit or 28 Cron. While they're both good lenses, they're not a 35 Lux I don't want to use my 35 in place of a 50, come to that, and I miss the context on my 50s as well.

 

IOW, the data is skewed by what we have now (and everyone knows I love my M8). TBH, my DMR is still the best wide camera I have because of the R19mm 2.8 lens (a great wide!), but I sure would like that lens to be a 19 too...

 

So--pretending everything else is equal--if I had a full-frame digital "M8" and the currently cropped M8, I bet I'd be using the full frame almost exclusively.

[Tony Wright]

I'm using a 28mm Elmarit to do the work done by my 35mm summicron on the M6 partly because I don't like the size of the 28mm summicron (the price is less of an issue) If a full frame M digital came out tomorrow I'd buy it - it would make all my lenses one stop faster for the same size!

[jaapv]

If we had a full frame and no 1.33x crop then how many people would be saying they wanted the crop version?

I suppose that would depend on the difference in price if both versions were offered.

[jaapv]

come on Aden, discarding the extreme outliers is a perfectly valid approach

Actually I was only having a (2nd) dig at Jaapv, who had made about 10% of the posts.

Other than what I said before about a 'few say this, a few say that' I would not presume to try any more detailed sort of analysis on a forum thread

 

Am I an extreme outlier for saying that I don't care either way, just that it seems to be an impossible wish at the present time?

[Ozkar]

I'd love to be shooting more and more with my 35 Lux instead of my 24 Elmarit or 28 Cron. While they're both good lenses, they're not a 35 Lux I don't want to use my 35 in place of a 50, come to that, and I miss the context on my 50s as well.

 

Here here !! I've tried them all as well and they are not substitutes for an M with a 35 LUX (on full frame).

[jimleicam3]

Guys give it a rest!!! Move on, it is what it is!! Monitor please end this madnness.

[Ozkar]

Guys give it a rest!!! Move on, it is what it is!! Monitor please end this madnness.

 

Party pooper !!

[marknorton]

For me the single biggest concern is whether they can make a feasible upgrade for the M8 to a FF sensor.. I'd rather not have to sell it at what will likely be a massive loss and then have to turn around and buy a new M9 or what ever.. Not demanding that Leica does this, just hoping they can.

 

You could always try selling your photo-vest to pay for the upgrade. If that didn't work, I don't hold out much hope for the Dunhill pipe, though...

 

As Lars has said, upgrading an M8 to FF is next to impossible and the requirement to be able to do so would be an unwelcome engineering constraint for the developers.

[plasticman]

Guys give it a rest!!! Move on, it is what it is!! Monitor please end this madnness.

 

I agree - block Jim's IP address so he can't see the civilized and funny discussions going on here.

 

That is what you wanted right, Jim?

[cj1]

Guys give it a rest!!! Move on, it is what it is!! Monitor please end this madnness.

 

 

How about freedom of speech!!! You don't have to read this thread if you don't want to... why does it bother you? This is the market speaking.. as Dr Kauffmann said "if full frame is what the market wants then that is what it will get... eventually" or something like that. I see no harm in ramming home the point that this is what the markets wants. You can choose to buy it or not and you can choose to read about it or not. That is one of the benefits of the internet.. freedom of speech. Or should we censor it like in China?!

[jaapv]

Hmmm Are you sure it is the market speaking? It sounds more like an Internet forum to me....

[cj1]

Hmmm Are you sure it is the market speaking? It sounds more like an Internet forum to me....

 

Which is representative of Leica users and potential customers... being able to have their say about what they want... cheaper than market research. Not sure what your point is?

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[Mike Rawcs]

No way they can cram a FF sensor into the present M8 shell. The whole thing will have to be completely reorganized inside, after lots of components have been shrunk drastically. All this will no doubt be done sometime, but don't hold yout breath. In other words, don't expect an upgrade to the M8/M8.2.

 

The old man from the Age of Glass Plates

 

Lars, why does the M9 have to use the present shell? I, for one, would be happy to see a more-ergonomically-shaped design that would enable a FF sensor in a still-discreet camera.

 

The most important thing for Leica is to get the design right-first-time; it does not have the resources not to. I'm sure that Leica have many design mock-ups for the M9. Why not show them to customers at Leica open days?

 

For many years a Hasselblad could be any shape it wanted as long as it stayed the same. They used the digital era to break constraints. Leica should do the same.

 

The success of the Canon G10 as a photojournalist / documentary photographer's backup camera for when discretion is an absolute necessity shows that many photographers would use an M9 if it was brought up-to-date. I'm not talking about multi-programmes etc. but good ergonomics, weather-sealed, reliable, tough - all the attributes of the film Leica with a full frame sensor. Pitch the price right and it would sell like hot cakes.

 

Mike.