Mr. Kaufmann on S2 price, production start, R-compability

[carstenw]

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Steve,

I think their strategy is to give potential future customers a happy surprise. Remember, Kauffman says 10-15 000 euros so 10 000 euros isn't unlikely at all, especially after talking to this dealer..

Actually, Kaufmann said 10-20,000, with the hope of getting below 15,000, so it seems a bit higher. Given the recent price drops, I am sure Leica will try to get it closer to 10,000, and given the time they have, they might be able to find a way. I sure hope so. At around 10,000 with the 70mm lens, I would start saving. At 15,000 I would probably pass. Not because I don't think it would be worth it, I just can't justify it.

[canlogic]

Actually, Kaufmann said 10-20,000, with the hope of getting below 15,000, so it seems a bit higher. Given the recent price drops, I am sure Leica will try to get it closer to 10,000, and given the time they have, they might be able to find a way. I sure hope so. At around 10,000 with the 70mm lens, I would start saving. At 15,000 I would probably pass. Not because I don't think it would be worth it, I just can't justify it.

 

I agree at that price I would be more than tempted to sell off my 1dsmk3 and some of my canon lenses, at 15 it is out of reach.

[mgcd]

Actually, Kaufmann said 10-20,000, with the hope of getting below 15,000, so it seems a bit higher. Given the recent price drops, I am sure Leica will try to get it closer to 10,000, and given the time they have, they might be able to find a way. I sure hope so. At around 10,000 with the 70mm lens, I would start saving. At 15,000 I would probably pass. Not because I don't think it would be worth it, I just can't justify it.

 

Also agreed at that price I can justify but beyond that, it becomes very difficult.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

My price point, not that it matters is body,70mm lens and extra battery kit for 14995.00 US.

 

That would be in line with the MF market today and just above the curve of the DSLR's at that price they should sell.

[mgcd]

At today's conversion rate sounds about right: €10,000 = $14,640.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I'm afraid any more than that it will be a struggle. Remember we need to buy Leica lenses new and that will hurt the purse big time. Figure average 3200 times 4 or so that's another 13k or so. So just shy of 30k for a system. Not sure you can ask Pro's to spend more than that on a average.

[lxlim]

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Yes. I would be tempted at US$15,000 for body + std lens.

 

The 3:2 format and the form factor is thankfully right for me.

 

Features I will need on the S2:

Clean ISO 1600 ~ 3200 files with different resolutions (37mp, 18mp, 9mp for example)

 

2 ~ 3 fps and output to external hard disk.

 

Connections to allow remote camera triggering by Pocket wizard.

 

Quiet. I think with mirror lock-up, the leaf shutters could be whisper quiet.

 

With these features, I can justify a purchase. Or my head will roll:p

[jrc]

Leica, I have to say, doesn't have the same sensitivity to price (or practicality) as some other companies...I have been interested in the new Pradovit 1200 projector, because I've long wanted a decent high-resolution digital projector -- two US discount houses have just put up the price...$14,000. Gulp. Back to color slides.

 

JC

[ptomsu]

A price of €12.000.- or $15.000.- for body and standard lens would keep me in the deal.

 

What I would like (need):

 

1) clear high IQ also in the range between ISO 1600 - 3200

2) 2 - 3 FPS

3) Pro like support - repair service and replacement camera while repair

4) clear trade in strategy for the body as new version (e.g. higher MP) arrives - or lower price - see Hasselblad

 

Otherwise the S Systems just looks great to me

[Richard.no]

I just read that the Norwegian importer expects it to sell for around NOK100,000 which is equivalent to EUR12,000 (approx.). Considering the first price quotes on EUR30,000, which was mind blowing and intimidating, I don't think EUR12,000 is that expensive actually. What will be really interesting, is what the S-series lenses will cost!

 

I might just sell off every bit of my Nikon system for a S2 at that price point. Of couse I'd have a lesser system optics wise, but I am not a pro after all - just a sucker for quality stuff.

 

So how much would you guess for:

70mm?

180mm?

The Tilt/Shift?

 

My price point, not that it matters is body,70mm lens and extra battery kit for 14995.00 US.

 

That would be in line with the MF market today and just above the curve of the DSLR's at that price they should sell.

[ptomsu]

I just read that the Norwegian importer expects it to sell for around NOK100,000 which is equivalent to EUR12,000 (approx.). Considering the first price quotes on EUR30,000, which was mind blowing and intimidating, I don't think EUR12,000 is that expensive actually. What will be really interesting, is what the S-series lenses will cost!

 

I might just sell off every bit of my Nikon system for a S2 at that price point. Of couse I'd have a lesser system optics wise, but I am not a pro after all - just a sucker for quality stuff.

 

So how much would you guess for:

70mm?

180mm?

The Tilt/Shift?

 

70mm - €2500.-

180mm - €3500.-

Tilt/Shift - €4500.-

 

Just my 5c

 

I might also get rid of most of my Nikon gear to jump into the S2 System if the price of €12000 is correct. I like especially the clear and ergonomic design of the S2. Man, compare this to a Nikon D3, with all the knobs, bells and whistles and then you know where you need to go

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I think the real beauty here which some folks are forgetting in this. Since I shoot MF now the S2 really is in most senses a oversized DSLR and that to me adds some power to it. If it can hold some of the speed of the DSLR camera's than this is a very interesting camera. Obviously it will not do 5 fps and frankly who cares . 1.5 FPS is faster than almost any MF system and that says a lot. Really the fastest back out there is .8 seconds until the next frame can be shot BUT that is a 18 mpx back. The biggest back coming the P65 will be 1 second, so 1.5 sounds slow to the DSLR user it really is quite fast to the MF user. Also shutter lag on my Phase is slow, the S2 sounds better from the reports. This is a bigger issue in MF since a big mirror is flying around. Now let's be realistic how many go above 1600 ISO or let's put it a better way , how many have to go past 1600. Unless your doing PJ work or wedding work ISO 1600 clean is a gift to the MF shooter. These three area's for me have my interest the most and most MF shooters are in the same boat.

 

The biggest issue here will be price and Leica needs to decide what kind of volume there after. Priced to high than MF shooters will NOT switch. Remember we will take a bath on our existing systems in resale and to toss another 15k into a new system won't happen easily for the same quality of file. Trust me when you get to MF the file quality difference between the backs is minimal. Today my lowly 22 mpx back will produce almost the same as the 39 backs the detail is better granted but it is NOT mind blowing better. Certainly a huge plus over 35mm though . These big sensors mean business. My point being guys like me need a real reason to switch over and price will be a big factor to get a faster camera. Otherwise most will stay with what they have , now obviously not counting the folks that want to move up to the S2 which by the numbers maybe more than the MF guys doing a lateral move. Still you can't ask a 1dsMKIII guy to go to far to jump up. He will gain quality for sure but will lose speed too.

 

The other is service and repair I want to be careful how I say this but if the service is not on a Pro level than seriously not many MF shooters will even bother. This is more important than anything else and i can't express that enough. The MF world is completely different than the 35mm world and if you are not getting your hand held than you will not buy. Most MF shooters can get a back by the next morning if something happens. We need our security blanket and no one will give that up as a Pro. Leica needs to figure this out getting into this MF world, not saying they won't but it is a different ball game.

[martinb]

Carsten,

Thanks for clarifying that it was between 10-20k euros. Sounds very very strange to indicate such a price point though. It's a 100% difference between 10 and 20k....

The price point I indicated is for body only I believe. We all know what Leica lenses cost, so bundled with the 70mm lens the price tag of course will be higher..

[stevelap]

I rang a few Leica stockists earlier, enquiring about S2 availability, pricing and waiting lists:

 

One seemed to know what he was talking about and claimed to have already taken two orders, although when pushed admitted that they didn't expect to have any hard and fast pricing information for a while. His guesstimate thought was £17000 (yes, pounds!), over €20k which I hope is way off....

 

A second was honest enough to admit that he had no information, as his boss was still away at photokina.

 

The third though, a Leica Premier dealer no less, claimed that no information existed and that only wooden mockups were on show in Germany!!

I wonder what that says about the quality of some UK Leica dealers?...(or maybe it's more to do with the quality of the staff they employ to man the shop on a Saturday)? I might have to ring Leica UK on Monday.

 

At circa €10000 I'd remain interested, but circa €20k would be too rich for me.

[carstenw]

Features I will need on the S2:

Clean ISO 1600 ~ 3200 files with different resolutions (37mp, 18mp, 9mp for example)

 

I see a lot of people saying this in these threads, but I think that this is hugely unrealistic, and anyone who truly requires this should probably just start saving for a 1Ds3. I mean, the best backs at the moment top out at ISO 400. This is just different tech, and a different mindset.

[carstenw]

Carsten,

Thanks for clarifying that it was between 10-20k euros. Sounds very very strange to indicate such a price point though. It's a 100% difference between 10 and 20k....

The price point I indicated is for body only I believe. We all know what Leica lenses cost, so bundled with the 70mm lens the price tag of course will be higher..

 

Yes, a 2x factor is very loose, but then we are 1 year away from production, and they only have hand-built prototypes, so it is clear why. Additionally, I imagine that there is some tolerance in this number, and that the time leading up to the release date will be crucial to the decision of exactly what the spec will be, and the consequent price.

 

I personally think that Leica would not say 10-20,000 if they weren't hoping to hit 10,000 with some certainty. They are testing the waters, so to speak. 10,000 for the body, plus perhaps 2,000-2,500 for the 70mm CS lens, if bought as a kit, and I am in.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I like the kit idea Body , 70mm lens , extra battery. Most MF gear is in kits like this setup.

 

Most MF folks only have a couple lenses as well. Okay i have 6 but going down to 5 and even that maybe much.

[topoxforddoc]

Guy,

 

When I met Andreas Kaufmann last weekend in the UK, he said that he will be introducing a proper pro service programme in the next few months. He was well aware of the issues regarding pro backup. However I can't tell you any more than that.

 

Charlie

[wildlightphoto]

I see a lot of people saying this in these threads, but I think that this is hugely unrealistic, and anyone who truly requires this should probably just start saving for a 1Ds3. I mean, the best backs at the moment top out at ISO 400. This is just different tech, and a different mindset.

 

Carsten, the S2 uses a new RGBI-pattern sensor, not Bayer pattern, which Kodak says improves sensitivity (read: less noise at high ISO. We'll have to see how this works out in reality but the current thinking vis-a-vis high-ISO noise applies to Bayer-pattern sensors, not RGBI sensors.

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

Guy,

 

When I met Andreas Kaufmann last weekend in the UK, he said that he will be introducing a proper pro service programme in the next few months. He was well aware of the issues regarding pro backup. However I can't tell you any more than that.

 

Charlie

 

AWESOME please let him know i would love to chat about that also, I'm serious. Leica really needs to make that level jump for this S2 product and if he can make that a go than Pro's will buy, I already sent a long note to my friends at Leica on this very subject. I hope it get's passed around and the folks that manage the S2 line get that perspective from the working Pro's. Seriously I would like nothing better than to see Leica succeed at this even if i can't buy it right away. I think this is a good market for Leica and i support there efforts