Mr. Kaufmann on S2 price, production start, R-compability

[mjh]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

the S2 uses a new RGBI-pattern sensor, not Bayer pattern

That would be news to me. Do you have a source for this? It isn’t mentioned in Kodak’s press release about the KAF-37500.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[wildlightphoto]

That would be news to me. Do you have a source for this? It isn’t mentioned in Kodak’s press release about the KAF-37500.

 

the KAF-37500 uses the TrueSense technology. from Electronista | Kodak CCD sensors used in high-end pro cameras

 

"Both the KAF-37500 and KAF-50100 sensors are built on Kodak’s latest TrueSense 6.0-micron Full Frame CCD platform for professional cameras."

 

And Kodak's description of TrueSense in its press relesae for the KAC-05020 sensor

KODAK TRUESENSE Pixel Redefines CMOS Image Capture

 

"Light sensitivity in the KAC-05020 is enhanced through use of the KODAK TRUESENSE Color Filter Pattern, which adds panchromatic, or "clear," pixels to the red, green and blue pixels already on the sensor. Since these pixels are sensitive to all wavelengths of visible light, they collect a significantly higher proportion of the light striking the sensor. This provides a 2x to 4x increase in sensitivity to light (from one to two photographic stops) compared to current sensor designs"

 

This may be a bit of a stretch but I'm assuming the TrueSense technology includes the Color Filter Pattern and the Hole-counting technology in both the KAF-37500 and the KAC-05020.

[topoxforddoc]

AWESOME please let him know i would love to chat about that also, I'm serious. Leica really needs to make that level jump for this S2 product and if he can make that a go than Pro's will buy, I already sent a long note to my friends at Leica on this very subject. I hope it get's passed around and the folks that manage the S2 line get that perspective from the working Pro's. Seriously I would like nothing better than to see Leica succeed at this even if i can't buy it right away. I think this is a good market for Leica and i support there efforts

 

Guy,

 

I met him twice briefly last weekend. He was in the UK at the Goodwood Revival (Goodwood I think Leica might be a sponsor for next year. He spotted my DMR and 280/4 APO and came to have a chat. He was really very approachable and interested. I noticed his M8 (not realising who he was) and said I hadn't bought one yet as the shutter was too loud. He said he had a M8.2 and let me try it (it's a lot quieter). We then chatted about the S2, R10 and the fact that he wanted to support the pros properly. I think he said that the pro support will be up and running by next year. He obviously enjoyed himself and we exchanged cards.

 

Hope that helps!

 

Best wishes,

 

Charlie

[mjh]

the KAF-37500 uses the TrueSense technology. from Electronista | Kodak CCD sensors used in high-end pro cameras

 

"Both the KAF-37500 and KAF-50100 sensors are built on Kodak’s latest TrueSense 6.0-micron Full Frame CCD platform for professional cameras."

 

And Kodak's description of TrueSense in its press relesae for the KAC-05020 sensor

KODAK TRUESENSE Pixel Redefines CMOS Image Capture

 

"Light sensitivity in the KAC-05020 is enhanced through use of the KODAK TRUESENSE Color Filter Pattern, which adds panchromatic, or "clear," pixels to the red, green and blue pixels already on the sensor. Since these pixels are sensitive to all wavelengths of visible light, they collect a significantly higher proportion of the light striking the sensor. This provides a 2x to 4x increase in sensitivity to light (from one to two photographic stops) compared to current sensor designs"

 

This may be a bit of a stretch but I'm assuming the TrueSense technology includes the Color Filter Pattern and the Hole-counting technology in both the KAF-37500 and the KAC-05020.

I doubt it. In their latest press release, Kodak specifically mentions the KAF-50100 and the KAF-37500. The KAF-50100 in Hasselblad’s new H3DII-50 uses RGB filters arranged in a Bayer pattern, and as far as I know, so does the KAF-37500 in the S2. Kodak affixes the “TRUESENSE” moniker to all their new sensors, be it CCD or CMOS, so I don’t take it to carry any specific meaning.

 

In any case, the RGBI pattern is unlikely to offer any benefits for high end photography; it might find some use in mobile phones though. While the KAC-05020 using the RGBI pattern was announced in February, I still haven’t seen any announcement of an actual camera using this sensor. It doesn’t show up in the list of currently available sensors either.

[martinb]

I rang a few Leica stockists earlier, enquiring about S2 availability, pricing and waiting lists:

 

One seemed to know what he was talking about and claimed to have already taken two orders, although when pushed admitted that they didn't expect to have any hard and fast pricing information for a while. His guesstimate thought was £17000 (yes, pounds!), over €20k which I hope is way off....

 

If that's true Leica can as well dig their own grave.. It may also be that they're going to work a lot with lens bundles so a price of say 17k GBP maybe will include maybe three lenses or so.. With medium format three lenses seem to be what most photographers ever need or work with..

[stunsworth]

If that's true Leica can as well dig their own grave..

 

Since the guy who owns the company has said that the camera will be in the 10-20,000 Euro range, and that he hopes that it will be less than 15,000 Euros - _and_ he has said that current market conditions will be taken into account when the camera is released, I think it safe to say that it's unlikely to cost £17,000 for the body.

[stevelap]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

If that's true Leica can as well dig their own grave.. It may also be that they're going to work a lot with lens bundles so a price of say 17k GBP maybe will include maybe three lenses or so.. With medium format three lenses seem to be what most photographers ever need or work with..

Let's hope so...

[Leicamateur]

 

Leicamateur,

I wish you would read about the S2 and for example the press release from Leica before you commit to negative comments about using R glass on the S2. If you read it, you would learn that different crop modes and resolutions will be part of the S2. So, if you imagine you "only" crop to a full frame 24x36, you'll end up with a 24 MP file.

 

And exactly that is the point. Why would a professional buy a 10,000+$ camera to use it in a reduced crop mode? That makes no sense at least not for me. I am a pro photographer, having several cameras amongst them the Nikon D700 and I would never even think about using it in crop mode. Else I could have bought the D300 to use APS-C dedicated lenses and still use it with 12MP res. and save some bucks.

 

I don't doubt that you still get some nice pictures with reduced 24mp and R glass but I want to point out that probably not many people will be willing to pay that kind of money for that.

[artur5]

I don't doubt that you still get some nice pictures with reduced 24mp and R glass but I want to point out that probably not many people will be willing to pay that kind of money for that.

 

Apart from the fact that Leica won't release such adapter.

See what they told to Andreas Jurgensen :

 

"I asked Maike Harberts and Stephan Schulz, both responsible for the LEICA S2 and the clear answer was: No, there will be no adapter to use R lenses on a LEICA S2.

 

The reasons:

- R lenses are not able to make a picture big enough for the chip

- The flange back (right word?) of the LEICA S2 is too big

 

In order to fix both issues you's need a optical solution that would reduce quality and woudl cost a lot of money.

 

Andreas (just back from the photokina for today)"

[stevelap]

Since the guy who owns the company has said that the camera will be in the 10-20,000 Euro range, and that he hopes that it will be less than 15,000 Euros - _and_ he has said that current market conditions will be taken into account when the camera is released, I think it safe to say that it's unlikely to cost £17,000 for the body.

Agreed Steve. The dealer admitted that no hard and fast information was available. I would hope that a body + lens would come in below that figure.

[jackal]

Since the guy who owns the company has said that the camera will be in the 10-20,000 Euro range, and that he hopes that it will be less than 15,000 Euros - _and_ he has said that current market conditions will be taken into account when the camera is released, I think it safe to say that it's unlikely to cost £17,000 for the body.

 

 

 

hmmmm, given that latest noct/lux prices I think it would be far wiser to just state that:

 

 

ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE !

[topoxforddoc]

Apart from the fact that Leica won't release such adapter.

See what they told to Andreas Jurgensen :

 

"I asked Maike Harberts and Stephan Schulz, both responsible for the LEICA S2 and the clear answer was: No, there will be no adapter to use R lenses on a LEICA S2.

 

The reasons:

- R lenses are not able to make a picture big enough for the chip

- The flange back (right word?) of the LEICA S2 is too big

 

In order to fix both issues you's need a optical solution that would reduce quality and woudl cost a lot of money.

 

Andreas (just back from the photokina for today)"

 

And yet Dr Kaufmann told me two days before Photokina that there will be an adapter for R lenses on the S2. It's just not announced yet.

 

Charlie

[mjh]

And yet Dr Kaufmann told me two days before Photokina that there will be an adapter for R lenses on the S2. It's just not announced yet.

Apparently thare was some miscommunication regarding this hypothetical adapter. What Maike Harberts and Stephan Schulz said makes a lot of sense; even if there were such an adapter, there would be little incentive in actually buying one.

[luigi bertolotti]

Apparently thare was some miscommunication regarding this hypothetical adapter. What Maike Harberts and Stephan Schulz said makes a lot of sense; even if there were such an adapter, there would be little incentive in actually buying one.

 

Agree... this issue of using R lenses is of course appealing to R lenses owners... but they are targeting pro MF users... so, at least, not a priority; I'd say even that a possible adapter could be a 3rd parties biz... when S2 will be really available in the market.

[R10dreamer]

I looked into the original brochure for the S1 and it was able to take both M and R lenses. Obviously the new chip size is the issue now.

[artur5]

The main issue here is clearly the registry distance -lens flange to sensor-. for the R system is 47mm. Don't know for the S2 but, given the sensor size (54mm. vs 43 on the 35mm. film) must be around 54-58mm.

You should have to insert the whole R lens+adapter 7 or 8mm. into the S2 body for focusing to infinity. That's quite impossible. Wouldn't clear the mirror or the inner flange where the pin contacts sit and probably the S2 throat isn't wide enough for the R lens to fit in, either

The only solution -as stated by Leica- is to make an adapter-teleconverter with glass elements.

Such adapters -as Canon's FD to EOS- work passable with long lenses but not so with wides. Besides, they change the speed and focus length of the lens by the adaptor factor- usually 1,3x or 1,4x.

[fotografr]

$22,000 at the present exchange rate is not chump change. Plus the cost of lenses. The declining dollar is adding a $7,000 premium to this camera. Wonder what affect that will have on US sales.

 

I too, see no point in using R glass on the S camera. Why pay all those $ for a smaller sensor foot print? Looks like you are talking $50,000 to get a camera and 3/4 lenses. Wow.

 

Better make that over $70,000 so as to include a backup body. Nobody shooting at this level is going to start the day without at least two bodies.

[stevelap]

I spoke to a few UK official dealerships again today. Not much information available concerning the S2, over and above what's already known, as you might expect. One of them did mention though that they'd been told by Leica UK to keep it low key at the moment, and not to take any provisional orders or start an official waiting list.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[RobMac]

That sounds encouraging... they make a big splash at the show and now want the dealers to keep it 'low key' and not start lists. Sigh.

[stevelap]

That sounds encouraging... they make a big splash at the show and now want the dealers to keep it 'low key' and not start lists. Sigh.

 

I get the impression that they don't want to make any further promises (ie price and availability) until it's ready to go this time. Trouble is expectation and interest is sky high post photokina, so if the S2 goes 'silent and deep' frustration might creep in instead.

Another dealer did say though that the wait might not be as long as people are expecting.

 

A further point that cropped up was how all of this relates to the official dealer chain. Carrying S2 inventory will be a sizeable investment for them, as in the UK at least, most Leica dealerships are small independent businesses. One I spoke to hoped that Leica might help out by sending 'S2 roadshows' around the network, so that even the smallest dealer might have something to show to their customers.