I love my… I love my M2

[pico]

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I just found this:

 

Leicaphilia

http://leicaphilia.com/category/black-paint-leica/

In 1958 Leitz introduced the M2 that was also made in black, the same finish and paint type that was used on the MP: dull and thin. Leitz produced 500 of the M2’s in this run of black paint production.

 

black m2 1958

All made of the first 500; 948601 to 949100
Mine: 948929
 

Frankly, I don't know what all this really means.

Edited April 28, 2016 by pico

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[menos I M6]

I just found this:

 

 

black m2 1958

All made of the first 500; 948601 to 949100

Mine: 948929

 

Frankly, I don't know what all this really means.

 

It means that in all likely hood you have a very valuable and pretty Leica M2 and you can decide if you rather preserve it's value or enjoy using it. ;-)

[pico]

It means that in all likely hood you have a very valuable and pretty Leica M2 and you can decide if you rather preserve it's value or enjoy using it. ;-)

 

Thanks for that. I have several working M cameras and can leave this one for the estate or a good offer. Oh, I have a never used black enamel M4, too. Oi! And a Busch D still in the box ... and too many things purchased while young and as stupid as I remain today.

[NB23]

I don't know why the gloss doesn't show up as it does in real life. Maybe the overhead shade was too diffuse. It was between rains.

 

Front view. Top view.

 

I'll try again on a clear day.

Maybe it is a re-paint?

.

The painting looks absolutely original. The serial number falls within the first batch of BP M2.

However, there are three things that shouldn't be there: silver shutter collar/ring. Silver door and silver rewind button.

 

However, the black strap eyelets suggest that It's an original.

 

The bits above can be easily changed. The question is why are they there? Was it that Leica's first batch of BP M2 used a few bits of other M2 and M3?

 

All in all, I think you can have quite a but of money for that lovely camera. Again, the serial number falls in the first batch, the paint is original and it's mint!

[pico]

The painting looks absolutely original. The serial number falls within the first batch of BP M2.

However, there are three things that shouldn't be there: silver shutter collar/ring. Silver door and silver rewind button.

 

However, the black strap eyelets suggest that It's an original.

 

The bits above can be easily changed. The question is why are they there? Was it that Leica's first batch of BP M2 used a few bits of other M2 and M3?

 

All in all, I think you can have quite a but of money for that lovely camera. Again, the serial number falls in the first batch, the paint is original and it's mint!

 

Good eyes!

 

I could rationalize those three chrome parts by saying they are used under pressure so it makes sense to have the chrome rather than the thin, soft paint, but all the others in the same batch I can find have them black (and worn). You missed one more. The ASA reminder on the back door is not black.   Wish I could find a bicycle and Leica fanatic in town to trade a Trek Domane for it. Time for morning coffee. I'm still dreaming!

[NB23]

I said "silver door"

Edited April 28, 2016 by NB23

[pico]

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I said "silver door"

 

Yah, you did. I was still half asleep.

[menos I M6]

The painting looks absolutely original. The serial number falls within the first batch of BP M2.

However, there are three things that shouldn't be there: silver shutter collar/ring. Silver door and silver rewind button.

 

However, the black strap eyelets suggest that It's an original.

 

The bits above can be easily changed. The question is why are they there? Was it that Leica's first batch of BP M2 used a few bits of other M2 and M3?

 

All in all, I think you can have quite a but of money for that lovely camera. Again, the serial number falls in the first batch, the paint is original and it's mint!

 

Ned, I do have a later lever rewind M2 that has been factory converted in the 1970s by Leica.

The silver details are on this one and many others I have seen as well.

The shutter button collar, shutter button, lens release button, flash shoe spring contacts and the small accessory pin at the bottom just above the base plate are all silver chrome on these cameras.

On black paint M2 bodies with self timer, also the self timer release is a silver chrome button.

 

Everything else is black paint.

 

I was skeptical at first as well, but after looking at every possible black paint bodies out there - within the original serial number brackets and factory conversions, those are indeed the details remaining silver chrome on original black paint bodies.

As with many things, Leica did, there are variations though.

 

One of the tricky give away's for some re-paint jobs is the film rewind knob assembly.

On repainted bodies, often the inner tube under the actual rewind knob remains silver chrome as this mechanism is hard to convert / paint.

Original black bodies and the very best of conversions only do have this part properly in black.

 

Another great giveaway is the aging of the white paint fill on the body.

The white paint used has a very distinctive aging to it.

On factory converted bodies another tricky detail is visible after so many decades: the serial number on factory conversions is engraved through the black paint into the naked brass and then filled with white paint.

Over time the brass directly under the white paint will chemically react and this lettering only will appear with a distinct greenish tinge while the remaining white lettering will have it's normal aged, yellowed tone (distinctly different from the serial number engraving.

The reason for this is that Leica indeed destroyed the original silver chrome top plates of converted cameras after having engraved the existing serial number is repainted fully finished top decks (which obviously lack the serial number engraving when they were created for the purpose of being a black paint spare part.

This is also the reason why one can find from time to time authentic M2, MP (M3 based) and M4 black paint top decks without serial number engraving for sale.

 

There are many, many more little details about how to spot a repaint from a genuine article.

Pico's images look beautiful indeed - details seen on the pictures do look right.

 

PS: it is hard to see, but I may add that the film reminder on the film door on my later body is entirely black paint with white paint fill - was this the detail you mentioned re. "silver door" ?

I do not remember how this was done on the first gen button rewind BP M2.

 

Here is a shot of my factory conversion and a few shots taken with it:

 

my favorite focal length pair by Dirk Steffen, on Flickr

 

BBQ by Dirk Steffen, on Flickr

 

portrait - construction worker by Dirk Steffen, on Flickr

 

best friends by Dirk Steffen, on Flickr

Edited April 28, 2016 by menos I M6

[pico]

Good information Dirk. Thank you.

 

I filled-in the serial number with white lacquer because it was dim, but still white. No green. That is all I've done to the camera. With all the positive reports, I'm getting nervous about having it. Seriously.

 

I have a lot to learn.

[NB23]

Dirk,

 

Silver bits on original BP M2 bodies are highly unlikely.It is the first time that I see one like this (Pico's M2). On M2 BP cameras, everything is Black Paint, even the door's ISO Dial is BP over Brass... Unlike M4 BP Cameras which have a lot of Silver chrome bits as well as Black Chrome bits.  On BP M4 Bodies, the door's ISO dial is Black paint over Aluminum.

 

Again, I have no doubt that this one's an original BP M2  but the silver parts are not comon for a cameras from this batch or for any M2 BP. A close friend owns 2 and I have one and all my searches confirmed me this. I firmly believe that these removal parts can and have been switched somewhere in time.

[pico]

[...] Again, I have no doubt that this one's an original BP M2  but the silver parts are not comon for a cameras from this batch or for any M2 BP. A close friend owns 2 and I have one and all my searches confirmed me this. I firmly believe that these removal parts can and have been switched somewhere in time.

 

The questions remains - why would a camera body that shows no wear have certain parts changed?

.

Edited April 28, 2016 by pico

[NB23]

The questions remains - why would a camera body that shows no wear have certain parts changed?

.

Depends. When did you buy it?

 

From new? Maybe Leica wasn't as strict. But I doubt... Although there is the Occasion where Leica seems to have messed a bit here and there. M4 BP bits and pieces comes to mind: mixing silver, black chrome and black paint parts all in one camera. Or a Leica MP battery cover from brass to aluminum. Or early MP door and electronics shared with M6 line...

 

In the 70s? Remember, that's when SLRs were all the rage. Nobody cared about BP or silver bits. The BP statement came back with the M6 millenium. Tom Abrahamsson could tell us all about it.

 

In 2000-2008? Leica was going bankrupt. Even collectors were afraid to keep their leicas. Film was supposed to go exinct very soon. All the cameras would become paperweights. Who cared about BP M2s? Only a few die hards.

 

In between all these years, maybe an owner liked the black door and switched ot with a silver M2. I know I'd do it if black doors were available (and If I owned a silver M2/M3).

 

I personally dislike the silver shutter collar on my MP and M7. I immediately put black ones. Who knows what someone will say about my cameras in 50 Years. Maybe something like "these are semi-fakes. The shutter collar is supposed to be SILVER".

 

Could be a matter od taste.

 

Who knows, really.

 

Or we can also go with the theory that someone purchased a BP top plate, had it engraved and slapped it on a semi-converted Silver M2.

 

The silver parts on your camera are easily switchable, so no biggie.

[menos I M6]

Dirk,

 

Silver bits on original BP M2 bodies are highly unlikely.It is the first time that I see one like this (Pico's M2). On M2 BP cameras, everything is Black Paint, even the door's ISO Dial is BP over Brass... Unlike M4 BP Cameras which have a lot of Silver chrome bits as well as Black Chrome bits.  On BP M4 Bodies, the door's ISO dial is Black paint over Aluminum.

 

Again, I have no doubt that this one's an original BP M2  but the silver parts are not comon for a cameras from this batch or for any M2 BP. A close friend owns 2 and I have one and all my searches confirmed me this. I firmly believe that these removal parts can and have been switched somewhere in time.

 

Ned, most of the Black Paint M2 bodies, I have seen do have a silver chrome lens release button. The ones with self timer I have seen all have a silver chrome release button.

The only item in question really is the shutter button collar which indeed is most likely an item either changed over time or specified by the original customer.

Film doors should always be black of course.

 

The silver chrome parts I named earlier are absolutely consistent with what you find on these bodies.

I guess it likely that early production runs where made to a higher degree of "blackening" (possibly including lens release button and definitely the shutter button collar) but as time moved on, these components may have been changed to silver chrome as of their quick wear.

 

Just in 2015 I remember were several late BP M2 models sold at Westlicht, which strikes me curious, all had silver chrome lens release and shutter button collars.

 

You also mentioned a possible mix of parts in the 70's after black chrome M4 production has commenced and black chrome spare parts have become available.

The conversion I have curiously does look like it has a black chrome shutter speed dial - this may have been a changed part or it may have happened in the factory during the conversion by Leica.

 

Not all Leica's are the same and are built as parts allow - my M7 also was modified as I specified but could not receive a black hot shoe as this spare part simply wasn't available at the time so it ended up being a curious mix of completely blacked out, yet with a single silver chrome part on it.

 

With M2 bodies as Sherry Krauter described me once it is a very difficult thing to determine a genuine item, as there are no internal marks or serial numbers (unlike original MP bodies which have matching numbers on top and internally).

The backstory to a camera and very much the natural patina of parts plays a big role in which M2 is genuine and which is a Franken-camera.

Unfortunately parts that are easily removed sometimes fall victim over time - I suspect the bottom plate of my M2 fell victim to this (or a black Leicavit I never received was originally installed).

[NB23]

Yes, The lens release button is the one and only silver chrome bit on all Leicas regardless if BP or not...

 

On one of my MPs I've dechromed the silver hot shoe. it's such a beautiful camera now. The silver hot shoe is another thing I really dislike

Edited April 29, 2016 by NB23

[menos I M6]

Now that is Black Paint true commitment - feel free to share a picture of the de-chromed mount MP on the MP thread ;-)

[NB23]

Now that is Black Paint true commitment - feel free to share a picture of the de-chromed mount MP on the MP thread ;-)

 

Here is a shot 2 years old. BP hot shoe, BP shutter collar, Black reversed shutter counter...

Edited April 29, 2016 by NB23

[BerkMillers]

So much to read, so I decided to schow my two beauties 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[semi-ambivalent]

 

BBQ by Dirk Steffen, on Flickr

 

Exceptional!

 

(I know this is a camera thread but cameras are for images, aren't they.)

s-a

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[a911s]

Silver bits on original BP M2 bodies are highly unlikely.

 

Yes, The lens release button is the one and only silver chrome bit on all Leicas regardless if BP or not...

 

Agreed. The shutter button collar should be black paint on original black paint M2s. These were sometimes replaced with chrome when serviced in the 70s. Same with the lugs. Not uncommon to see an incorrect black chrome shutter speed dial on a black paint M2 too, as this is one of the first things to show wear. Shutter button and lens release button are chrome, rewind release is not. There were variations on original BP M2 bodies, of course, but those are not the norm.  

Edited April 30, 2016 by a911s

[pico]

I gather that it seems likely that Leica might recommend certain parts be replaced with chrome for the sake of durability.