Zeiss Sonnar 1.5/5cm LTM

[Pyrogallol]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Thanks. I think I have found that one

 

[mickjazz]

Close.  My lens is the same sn but ends in 67

[bluesky401319]

Am 24.6.2019 um 06:43 schrieb mickjazz:

I have one of the so-called 39 or 1939 sonnars in m39. I have only seen one other,  Westlicht had one at auction a few years ago. 

I have a couple of the supposed war time sonnars but the 1939 is completely different being a chrome lens with a different shape. See attached image. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Hi mickjazz,

I recently bought a lens exactly like this but with a bit nickel color. Many says it is a fake.

Do you have more information about it? Is the DOF scale very strange on it? 

[seekwhence]

Just thought I'd show my example... It is a 1938 Leica IIIa with what appears to be an original Zeiss 1.5 with M39 mount. Thiele's Frabrikationsbuch, Photooptik II (for) Carl Zeiss Jena lists the serial number of the lens as being from 1943 and definitely made for Leica camera use.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[bluesky401319]

 

I bought this lens about four months ago from a lawyer in Berlin, it was a legacy of his father. It doesn’t seem like any Sonnars I‘ve seen and obviously very different from other Sonnars.

Chris Andreyo from Skyllaney contacts me and share some of his thoughts after I posted it on FB for it’s odd DOF scale, and then I decided to send the lens to him for CLA works and further forensic inspection. 

Chris dissembled the lens and had it all cleaned, re-centered and adjusted. Chris concludes this is an authentic prewar Zeiss Sonnar, base on many similarities to the official first generation pre-war Sonnar he owns. But why the actual focal length is 58mm remains unknown. For more details click the link below:

https://www.facebook.com/113802013610784/posts/472072864450362/?d=n

I‘ve done some homework from internet threads and many says the 58mm Sonnars were from the Stuka Stuvi parts and assembled in transition time, these might not perform well. I compared it with J-3 / Opton-Sonnar and a Prominent Nokton, and find some interesting results.

This was done with my Leica SL 601. Other then color rendering from the green-yellow tends from J-3, this Sonnar is quite a decent performer and have similar characters with J-3. A bit shaper in some ways but performs very similar. The Opton-Sonnar does a level higher shaper in center and has more overall contrast. Prominent Nokton has no doubts better corner when stopped down and better noticeable optical aberration control, but center sharpness when wide open is quite the same to my Sonnar and J3 but not so sharp as the Opton-Sonnar. BUT the differences was not so much when I used it on film.

I won’t bother you guys with all the magnified image testing results, I rather soot these fine lenses on film. I think this lens performs quite well, as long as I can keep it from flaring.

It is very exciting to have a piece of history in hand, and have it restored by Sonnar-Master Chris Andreyo. Skyllaney is highly recommended to CLA your Lens.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Charles Morgan]

1 minute ago, bluesky401319 said:

 

I bought this lens about four months ago from a lawyer in Berlin, it was a legacy of his father. It doesn’t seem like any Sonnars I‘ve seen and obviously very different from other Sonnars.

Chris Andreyo from Skyllaney contacts me and share some of his thoughts after I posted it on FB for it’s odd DOF scale, and then I decided to send the lens to him for CLA works and further forensic inspection. 

Chris dissembled the lens and had it all cleaned, re-centered and adjusted. Chris concludes this is an authentic prewar Zeiss Sonnar, base on many similarities to the official first generation pre-war Sonnar he owns. But why the actual focal length is 58mm remains unknown. For more details click the link below:

https://www.facebook.com/113802013610784/posts/472072864450362/?d=n

I‘ve done some homework from internet threads and many says the 58mm Sonnars were from the Stuka Stuvi parts and assembled in transition time, these might not perform well. I compared it with J-3 / Opton-Sonnar and a Prominent Nokton, and find some interesting results.

This was done with my Leica SL 601. Other then color rendering from the green-yellow tends from J-3, this Sonnar is quite a decent performer and have similar characters with J-3. A bit shaper in some ways but performs very similar. The Opton-Sonnar does a level higher shaper in center and has more overall contrast. Prominent Nokton has no doubts better corner when stopped down and better noticeable optical aberration control, but center sharpness when wide open is quite the same to my Sonnar and J3 but not so sharp as the Opton-Sonnar. BUT the differences was not so much when I used it on film.

I won’t bother you guys with all the magnified image testing results, I rather soot these fine lenses on film. I think this lens performs quite well, as long as I can keep it from flaring.

It is very exciting to have a piece of history in hand, and have it restored by Sonnar-Master Chris Andreyo. Skyllaney is highly recommended to CLA your Lens.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Fabulous - I recall seeing Chris's write up recently - a fascinating lens. He did a singularly spectacular job restoring my J3, and I agree entirely with your recommendation! Thank you!

[bluesky401319]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[bluesky401319]

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[bluesky401319]

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Pyrogallol]

Another Leica Sonnar. An 85mm f2 claiming to be from 1942, number 2839397.

Looks and feels right. Red “T”, small “m”, comma for decimal point, coated. Wartime or Russian occupation?

Suggestions welcome.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited April 22, 2022 by Pyrogallol

[Pyrogallol]

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[sabears]

Another Leica Sonnar. An 85mm f2 claiming to be from 1942, number 2839397.

Looks and feels right. Red “T”, small “m”, comma for decimal point, coated. Wartime or Russian occupation?

Suggestions welcome.

... Obviously the second (see Thiele book)

[Pyrogallol]

11 hours ago, sabears said:

Another Leica Sonnar. An 85mm f2 claiming to be from 1942, number 2839397.

Looks and feels right. Red “T”, small “m”, comma for decimal point, coated. Wartime or Russian occupation?

Suggestions welcome.

... Obviously the second (see Thiele book)

I don’t have the Thiele book. In what respect “obvious”?

[Pyrogallol]

On 4/22/2022 at 2:24 PM, Pyrogallol said:

Another Leica Sonnar. An 85mm f2 claiming to be from 1942, number 2839397.

Looks and feels right. Red “T”, small “m”, comma for decimal point, coated. Wartime or Russian occupation?

Suggestions welcome.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Over a year later and I have just added two Jupiter 9 lenses, 1958 and 1959. Trying them out now. The Jupiters focus a little closer than the Sonnar, which I assume now is an early postwar Russian build.

[Pyrogallol]

Adding to my earlier purchases. Another Carl Zeiss Jena 50mm Sonnar in Leica thread. The f2 version this time and claiming to be from 1941.

With "ears" and comma decimal point on aperture and focusing scales. But no M or m for distance scale ? Glass is coated. 

Genuine 1941 Zeiss or another postwar Russian construction? Someone will know.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

[UliWer]

I'd suggest to look for the engraving of "4". Your example has the open font for "4", while Zeiss traditionally used the enclosed version like in most modern fonts:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Here you have a pre-war 1:1.5 Sonnar (No. 2188xxx) in the middle, a 1:2 Sonnar (2228xxx) at the right and even a post-war East-German Biometar  (3212xxx) at the left They all have the enclosed font style for the "4". The modern post-war lens from Zeiss West-Germany used the open version of the font. 

Though this is no proof that your example is fake as Zeiss wartime production was very inconsistent - to say the least. And if it is a fake it may well be a German one:

Here is very interesting article about the faked Sonnars during the early postwar years: https://zeissikonveb.de/start/objektive/sonstige_objektive/leica-sonnar.html

(Please don't hesitate to ask for a translation, if you can't read it in German. I'll try to give you a summary). 

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2024 by UliWer

[Pyrogallol]

Looking closer I now see that the distance scale and depth of field scales both have the open font 4 while the diaphragm scale has the closed font 4.

But that then asks the question of when the lenshead and focussing mount were put together and why neither the uppercase Russian "M" nor the lowercase Zeiss "m" for the distance measurement were engraved on the focussing mount?

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited June 28, 2024 by Pyrogallol

[Pyrogallol]

20 hours ago, UliWer said:

I'd suggest to look for the engraving of "4". Your example has the open font for "4", while Zeiss traditionally used the enclosed version like in most modern fonts:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Here you have a pre-war 1:1.5 Sonnar (No. 2188xxx) in the middle, a 1:2 Sonnar (2228xxx) at the right and even a post-war East-German Biometar  (3212xxx) at the left They all have the enclosed font style for the "4". The modern post-war lens from Zeiss West-Germany used the open version of the font. 

Though this is no proof that your example is fake as Zeiss wartime production was very inconsistent - to say the least. And if it is a fake it may well be a German one:

Here is very interesting article about the faked Sonnars during the early postwar years: https://zeissikonveb.de/start/objektive/sonstige_objektive/leica-sonnar.html

(Please don't hesitate to ask for a translation, if you can't read it in German. I'll try to give you a summary). 

 

 

 

A summary translation would be helpful. Thanks.

[UliWer]

I'll try.

The first part of the article by Marco Kröger on "zeissikonveb" deals with special lens designs for military purposes during the war and is perhaps not so interesting in this context.

The second part under the header "Fälschungen als Phänomen bei der Umstellung auf eine Friedenswirtschaft" ("Fakes as a phenomenon during the conversion to peacetime economy") deals with the times between the end of the war, the dismantling of the Zeiss factories by Soviet forces in 1946/47 and the start of the post-war production from 1950 onwards. The article begins with:

"During this period strange things must have happened. Which is no wonder when highly specialized skilled workers were unemployed. They will look for means to make their living." It then attracts the attention to the so-called "Leica-Sonnar" which exists in many different versions, with different information about the focal length, different outward finishes and sometimes even coated. "They all have one thing in common: they were neither made by Leitz ("Leica") nor by Zeiss ("Sonnar"). The trademarks were just stolen." Marco Kröger then quotes a publication by Zeiss from 1949. It says.

"During the dismantling in winter 1946 to 1947 in some cases employees of the factory in other cases outsiders who had access to the factory pilfered finished and half finished lenses, in some cases only parts of lenses from the factory and played them into the hands of other entities. If these items were finished or almost finished and already tested our name remained nearly undamaged.  Different are those cases when other entities more or less skillfully make up their own lenses from our parts. Only where the lens parts were originally produced the exact dates and measures are known and they must be followed painstakingly when a lens is mounted to achieve its full performance. Parts from different batches of production cannot be combined just like that to a fully adequate lens. Though the fakers don't care about this if only the lens looks like a Zeiss lens and is engraved as such. In some cases we even noticed examples which lacked single elements.

Careful observers will identify a large quantum of these faked lenses by the bad engraving of the division for metering or the usual lettering. Also deliberately chosen fabrication numbers cause legitimate doubts about authenticity of the lenses if Sonnars are numbered below 2.000.000.

Since last year (i.e. 1948) in many places lenses engraved Sonnar 1,5/5,8 cm (or 6cm) have appeared, in some cases also with the engraving 5cm. In most cases these lenses are offered in mounts for the Leica. Sometimes the inscriptions are "Leica-Sonnar" without any further branding, though some are also engraved "Carl Zeiss, Jena" These lenses were produced with a Sonnar design during wartime by other entities for "Sturzvisiere" (uliwer: I cannot find any translation for this device, it seems to be some optical device used in dive bombers, though I may be wrong, "STUVI")) with a rather crude mount without further engravings. It can be assumed that other factories, which unfortunately couldn't be identified yet, have remounted and completed these lenses. People who bought these lenses have in some cases complained to us about the bad image quality. Of course we refuse any review or repair and try to get these lenses off the market. 

By placing an add in different professional and daily newspapers we have warned against buying these lenses which are offered secretly and proposed to question with full details about lettering and fabrication number whether it is an authentical Zeiss produkt. A safe determination of course is only possible with the relevant lens at hand as the fanrictaion number only can tell if a lens of the relevant kind has been produced by us. The fakers may have used intentionally or randomly a number which was indeed used for a les produced and delivered by us." 

Marco Kröger finally has his own theory about the ominous "outside entity" which might have produced the "Leica-Sonnar" he shows in his article. He explains that the Sonnar's focal length differed from Leica lenses with 50mm (Uliwer: one recognizes that a Sonnar is longer if one compares its field of view to a contemporary Leica lens). So it needed an expert adaptation which he thinks was not possible in some backyard workshops. He compares his example to the outward design of some wartime or postwar Meyer Görlitz Trioplan lenses - and adds that this assumption cannot be proved or refuted today.

Your example doesn't show these similarities to Meyer lenses. So nobody can tell. in Helmut Thiele's "Fabrikationsbuch Photooptik II Carl Zeiss Jena" a batch of 5000 1:2/5cm Sonnars with numbers 2.682.701 - 2.687.700 is listed - though without dates and the remark that Thiele found no document about the production of this batch.

I personally would not touch any Zeiss Ikon Lens with serial number between 2.600.000 and 2.999.999 - especially if it has a Leica mount. 

 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Pyrogallol]

1 hour ago, UliWer said:

I'll try.

The first part of the article by Marco Kröger on "zeissikonveb" deals with special lens designs for military purposes during the war and is perhaps not so interesting in this context.

The second part under the header "Fälschungen als Phänomen bei der Umstellung auf eine Friedenswirtschaft" ("Fakes as a phenomenon during the conversion to peacetime economy") deals with the times between the end of the war, the dismantling of the Zeiss factories by Soviet forces in 1946/47 and the start of the post-war production from 1950 onwards. The article begins with:

"During this period strange things must have happened. Which is no wonder when highly specialized skilled workers were unemployed. They will look for means to make their living." It then attracts the attention to the so-called "Leica-Sonnar" which exists in many different versions, with different information about the focal length, different outward finishes and sometimes even coated. "They all have one thing in common: they were neither made by Leitz ("Leica") nor by Zeiss ("Sonnar"). The trademarks were just stolen." Marco Kröger then quotes a publication by Zeiss from 1949. It says.

"During the dismantling in winter 1946 to 1947 in some cases employees of the factory in other cases outsiders who had access to the factory pilfered finished and half finished lenses, in some cases only parts of lenses from the factory and played them into the hands of other entities. If these items were finished or almost finished and already tested our name remained nearly undamaged.  Different are those cases when other entities more or less skillfully make up their own lenses from our parts. Only where the lens parts were originally produced the exact dates and measures are known and they must be followed painstakingly when a lens is mounted to achieve its full performance. Parts from different batches of production cannot be combined just like that to a fully adequate lens. Though the fakers don't care about this if only the lens looks like a Zeiss lens and is engraved as such. In some cases we even noticed examples which lacked single elements.

Careful observers will identify a large quantum of these faked lenses by the bad engraving of the division for metering or the usual lettering. Also deliberately chosen fabrication numbers cause legitimate doubts about authenticity of the lenses if Sonnars are numbered below 2.000.000.

Since last year (i.e. 1948) in many places lenses engraved Sonnar 1,5/5,8 cm (or 6cm) have appeared, in some cases also with the engraving 5cm. In most cases these lenses are offered in mounts for the Leica. Sometimes the inscriptions are "Leica-Sonnar" without any further branding, though some are also engraved "Carl Zeiss, Jena" These lenses were produced with a Sonnar design during wartime by other entities for "Sturzvisiere" (uliwer: I cannot find any translation for this device, it seems to be some optical device used in dive bombers, though I may be wrong, "STUVI")) with a rather crude mount without further engravings. It can be assumed that other factories, which unfortunately couldn't be identified yet, have remounted and completed these lenses. People who bought these lenses have in some cases complained to us about the bad image quality. Of course we refuse any review or repair and try to get these lenses off the market. 

By placing an add in different professional and daily newspapers we have warned against buying these lenses which are offered secretly and proposed to question with full details about lettering and fabrication number whether it is an authentical Zeiss produkt. A safe determination of course is only possible with the relevant lens at hand as the fanrictaion number only can tell if a lens of the relevant kind has been produced by us. The fakers may have used intentionally or randomly a number which was indeed used for a les produced and delivered by us." 

Marco Kröger finally has his own theory about the ominous "outside entity" which might have produced the "Leica-Sonnar" he shows in his article. He explains that the Sonnar's focal length differed from Leica lenses with 50mm (Uliwer: one recognizes that a Sonnar is longer if one compares its field of view to a contemporary Leica lens). So it needed an expert adaptation which he thinks was not possible in some backyard workshops. He compares his example to the outward design of some wartime or postwar Meyer Görlitz Trioplan lenses - and adds that this assumption cannot be proved or refuted today.

Your example doesn't show these similarities to Meyer lenses. So nobody can tell. in Helmut Thiele's "Fabrikationsbuch Photooptik II Carl Zeiss Jena" a batch of 5000 1:2/5cm Sonnars with numbers 2.682.701 - 2.687.700 is listed - though without dates and the remark that Thiele found no document about the production of this batch.

I personally would not touch any Zeiss Ikon Lens with serial number between 2.600.000 and 2.999.999 - especially if it has a Leica mount. 

 

Thank you very much for that. It does give a feeling for how it was in the early post-war period. We should thank those people who put together these lenses that some of us enjoy collecting and using. They may have done it to earn a little money in difficult times and we now may describe them as "fakes", but we should treat them as genuine products of their time.