sabears Posted January 7, 2019 Share #41 Posted January 7, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) Your lens is from one of the last genuine wartime batches of 5cm f1.5 Sonnars which was completed on 29th January 1943. Batch - Serial nos.2724501 to 2727500 = 3000 lenses (some in Contax mount, and some, it seems more or less 500, in LTM mount supposedly for the German Military). The important difference between this batch and later batches is that Batch 2724501 - 2727500 was COMPLETED on 29th January 1943. Other later batches were not completed before cessation of hostilities and there is a good possibility that these batches were not completed until Post-War years during the Soviet occupation of Germany, and therefore some of the lenses in these later batches cannot be guaranteed to contain only Wartime (CZJ) German parts. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 7, 2019 Posted January 7, 2019 Hi sabears, Take a look here Zeiss Sonnar 1.5/5cm LTM. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
tranquilo67 Posted January 8, 2019 Share #42 Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) I hadn't see this thread before!! This is one of my favorite lenses. And, yes, there are a lot of fakes over there using Contax mount optical group over Jupiter barrels. I have a nice 50 1.5 in LTM belonging to the "obscure" serials 2859XXX. It's said that some of these late LTM were even mounted at home by Zeiss workers. A nice lens with a sad history. Mine is 534 serial numbers away from the one documented in the Zeiss Historical Society journal (Autumn 2006), and 736 number away from the famous one documented in the letter by an American soldier asking for permission to take it back home together with a camera (by the way, if any of you have an scanned copy of that letter, it would be really appreciated). I've also seen two others well documented 101 and 111 serials lower than mine. Once I'll unpack the boxes in my new house I'll post a picture of it. Best regards PS: There is a reference to another sample in the Zeiss Historical Society journal (Autumn 2001) just in case you're interested Edited January 8, 2019 by tranquilo67 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrogallol Posted January 26, 2019 Share #43 Posted January 26, 2019 On 1/6/2019 at 3:34 PM, Pyrogallol said: I have recently been reading whatever I can find about the Zeiss lenses made in Leica thread during the Second World War. I have read about how Zeiss were instructed by the German government of the time to make some lenses to fit Leica cameras, I believe because the Contax wide aperture lenses were believed better than the Leitz ones. Mostly they were the 50mm f1.5 Sonnar. I have read what I can about how to tell a genuine war-time lens from those made during the time the Russians were carrying off what remained of the Zeiss factory and workers to Russia, the transition into the Russian Jupiter lens era and the "faked" copies. So now I have bought this one; The serial number relates to 1941, and the serial number on the front ring matches that stamped into the rear of the lens unit. The last three digits of the number are also scratched inside the focussing mount. The aperture control has "ears". There are two different sized screws in the focussing barrel. The engravings have a "," for the decimal point, a small "m" for metres and a line for the aperture index. Have I got a genuine war-time LTM Sonnar? Someone on the Forum will know. (I found this old thread on the subject). Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I have just printed the first test from the lens and the focusing seems accurate. The glass is not perfect and the filter thread is damaged, but the focussing and aperture movements are good. I have just printed some more pictures taken with the Sonnar, surprisingly good results. Leica 2 and a half, approx. 1 second at approx. f6.3 on tripod, FP4 in Rodinal, scanned from A4 size sepia toned prints. 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jed Posted February 1, 2019 Share #44 Posted February 1, 2019 On 1/7/2019 at 2:06 PM, sabears said: Your lens is from one of the last genuine wartime batches of 5cm f1.5 Sonnars which was completed on 29th January 1943. Batch - Serial nos.2724501 to 2727500 = 3000 lenses (some in Contax mount, and some, it seems more or less 500, in LTM mount supposedly for the German Military). The important difference between this batch and later batches is that Batch 2724501 - 2727500 was COMPLETED on 29th January 1943. Other later batches were not completed before cessation of hostilities and there is a good possibility that these batches were not completed until Post-War years during the Soviet occupation of Germany, and therefore some of the lenses in these later batches cannot be guaranteed to contain only Wartime (CZJ) German parts. Hello, Thanks for your message. I own one, see : Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/45989-zeiss-sonnar-155cm-ltm/?do=findComment&comment=3675984'>More sharing options...
Pyrogallol Posted February 15, 2019 Share #45 Posted February 15, 2019 (edited) Since getting the ltm Sonnar at Christmas that I have learned so much more about from sabears, another one arrived today. It has an earlier serial number 2669101 and has several differences from the first. It has a black front rim, no “T” for coating, dots instead of commas for decimal points in the engravings, a dot rather than a line for the aperture index, much poorer quality engravings and the back appears to be engineered differently. The focussing mount seems to be the same mechanically as the first, though when I tried it out this afternoon it was a bit sloppy in screwing into the camera body and ended up about 180 degrees out of position with the focussing index underneath the camera body. However the three negatives I took on the end of a roll of film are in focus, so all looks good. any comments would be welcomed. I wonder if this is a later Russian takeover period lens, using Zeiss parts and a front serial number ring from an earlier period? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited February 15, 2019 by Pyrogallol Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/45989-zeiss-sonnar-155cm-ltm/?do=findComment&comment=3684952'>More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 15, 2019 Share #46 Posted February 15, 2019 Information on FSU versions here: http://www.sovietcams.com/index.php?-1123596578 http://collectiblend.com/Lenses/Krasnogorsk/50mm-f1.5-ZK-(M39).html I hope that these links are useful. I have a Jupiter 3 PT 1630, which I bought in St Petersburg last year. It is a superb lens, which did not cost very much. William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 16, 2019 Share #47 Posted February 16, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) I take it that you have a Jupiter 3 as well. I have many Leica lenses (about 50, at least) and this one compares with the best of them. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrogallol Posted February 16, 2019 Share #48 Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, willeica said: I take it that you have a Jupiter 3 as well. I have many Leica lenses (about 50, at least) and this one compares with the best of them. William I don't have a Jupiter 3, but do have a couple of Jupiter 8's. Perhaps I ought to do a test of all four on one subject to see if I can tell how different from each other they are. The black rim "Russian" Sonnar does not have a "T" to indicate coating, though it seems to be blue coated, does this indicate that the front ring was left over from pre-war uncoated lens spare parts? The serial number seems to relate to 1940. If I date the lens as 1945-48 would I be about right? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited February 16, 2019 by Pyrogallol Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/45989-zeiss-sonnar-155cm-ltm/?do=findComment&comment=3685335'>More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 16, 2019 Share #49 Posted February 16, 2019 I had the opportunity of testing some Jupiter 3s on my M10 at Photolubitel in St Petersburg https://photolubitel.com . They had a good selection of Jupiter 3s and I chose the one with the best results to my eye. I was also looking for an 85mm and I tried the only Jupiter 9 which they had, but the results were not good and, so, I left it behind. The young man behind the counter in the St Petersburg Store was very knowledgeable about FSU cameras and lenses. You will see that Photolubitel are in some locations outside of Russia eg Amsterdam, Stockholm and Helsinki. The FSU models were produced in great numbers and if you can get a good sample they can produce great results. William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 16, 2019 Share #50 Posted February 16, 2019 3 hours ago, Pyrogallol said: The black rim "Russian" Sonnar does not have a "T" to indicate coating, though it seems to be blue coated, does this indicate that the front ring was left over from pre-war uncoated lens spare parts? The serial number seems to relate to 1940. If I date the lens as 1945-48 would I be about right? The link which I gave you goes through the Krasnogorsk versions. This link gives you the Kiev versions http://www.sovietcams.com/index.php?1702131232 . You will see that the PT 2010 version from the late 1940s was partially or totally assembled from Zeiss (Germany) lenses. See also https://www.quora.com/What-Carl-Zeiss-lenses-were-cloned-by-the-Soviet-Is-there-any-clone-for-the-Biotar-75mm-f-1-5 . There are quite a few books in Russian about the subject, but this limited edition book in English http://www.leicashop.com/brandnew_en/zeiss-and-photography-by-lawrence-j-gubas.html does have a chapter (No. 24) on the Soviet links with Zeiss If you want the ultimate it is here https://petapixel.com/2014/12/01/meet-man-documented-entire-history-zeiss-cameras-1300-page-7-7-pound-book/ , but you would need a mighty bookshelf to hold it. William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrogallol Posted May 26, 2019 Share #51 Posted May 26, 2019 This is a picture taken with the Russian built black rim Sonnar, on a Leica Standard, with guessed focussing distence. The lens is sharp in the center when stopped down and interestingly swirly around the edges, perhaps the elements are not alligned correctly. Probably make a nice portrait lens. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/45989-zeiss-sonnar-155cm-ltm/?do=findComment&comment=3748044'>More sharing options...
willeica Posted May 26, 2019 Share #52 Posted May 26, 2019 Apologies if I linked this before, but I cannot see it above. This shows my Jupiter 3 (Sonnar copy) and some photos taken with the lens. https://www.macfilos.com/2018/05/14/2018-5-11-russian-lens-galaxy-from-sonnar-to-jupiter/ William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickjazz Posted June 24, 2019 Share #53 Posted June 24, 2019 I have one of the so-called 39 or 1939 sonnars in m39. I have only seen one other, Westlicht had one at auction a few years ago. I have a couple of the supposed war time sonnars but the 1939 is completely different being a chrome lens with a different shape. See attached image. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/45989-zeiss-sonnar-155cm-ltm/?do=findComment&comment=3765256'>More sharing options...
thrid Posted October 7, 2019 Share #54 Posted October 7, 2019 If anyone is seriously considering having their lens recoated, I strongly suggest getting it done by a true expert with the proper equipment. Even more so when the lens in question is rare and expensive. Please keep in mind that marks on the front element have very little effect on image quality, unless the coating looks like someone worked it over with a Brillo pad. Marks and nicks on the rear element are far more consequential, but depending on their location not necessarily disastrous. I have used Stelton in the past for a basic CLA on several lenses and was unsatisfied with his work. The lubricants in all three of these lenses (3.5 Elmar, Summar, Summitar) dried up in a matter of a few years and the IIIc that he serviced had to be reworked by Sherry K. I have heard a rumor that John himself has retired and someone else has taken over the business under same name, so maybe things have changed. For re-coating or re-cementing I recommend going to a technician who services high end cinema lenses. There are a handful of reputable technicians in Europe and the US that routinely deal with cinema lenses that cost thousands or tens of thousands of dollars and will get the job done right. Not all of them service still lenses, but I can't hurt to reach out. Focus Optics is about to service my Summilux-M 1,4/50 which is suffering from separation, if I ever find the time to drop it off for an estimate. https://www.focusoptics.com https://www.pstechnik.de/services/lens-service/ http://cinematechnic.com/services/cine_lens_service https://www.truelens.co.uk Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrogallol Posted December 20, 2019 Share #55 Posted December 20, 2019 Another picture from the 1943 Sonnar. This time the focus seems a bit out, maybe the lens did not like the body perfectly (Leica 3). I was retesting the body as the first film I put through it had scratches, this time it seems better. Scanned from a darkroom prin. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/45989-zeiss-sonnar-155cm-ltm/?do=findComment&comment=3876554'>More sharing options...
Pyrogallol Posted April 17, 2020 Share #56 Posted April 17, 2020 (edited) Two more pictures from the “Russian” built Sonnar, close up and wide open at f1.5 showing the swirly appearance. meanwhile I keep looking at this one https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Zeiss-Jena-for-Leica-Screw-Mount-Sonnar-2-5cm-T/264695997152?hash=item3da11c62e0:g:XJMAAOSwTthekODN and trying to decide if it is genuine? I have read that the collapsible Sonnars were not faked. a bit more expensive than I would like. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited April 17, 2020 by Pyrogallol Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/45989-zeiss-sonnar-155cm-ltm/?do=findComment&comment=3955471'>More sharing options...
sabears Posted April 17, 2020 Share #57 Posted April 17, 2020 3 hours ago, Pyrogallol said: Two more pictures from the “Russian” built Sonnar, close up and wide open at f1.5 showing the swirly appearance. meanwhile I keep looking at this one https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Zeiss-Jena-for-Leica-Screw-Mount-Sonnar-2-5cm-T/264695997152?hash=item3da11c62e0:g:XJMAAOSwTthekODN and trying to decide if it is genuine? I have read that the collapsible Sonnars were not faked. a bit more expensive than I would like. Yes, the lens is original: according L.J. Gubas research these 270xx... were biult in very few number before oct 1946, both for FED and Leica. This lens was for Leica. There are even some wartime ones in 271xxx... ser. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrogallol Posted April 17, 2020 Share #58 Posted April 17, 2020 (edited) Now I’ve found a collapsible Leica screw Sonnar that looks very fake. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fed-Nkvd-with-Sonnar-50mm-f2-Reentrant-Leica-Copy-Russian/324029885573?hash=item4b71afac85:g:RuMAAOSwN6FdFacL Edited April 17, 2020 by Pyrogallol Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted April 17, 2020 Share #59 Posted April 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Pyrogallol said: Now I’ve found a collapsible Leica screw Sonnar that looks very fake. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fed-Nkvd-with-Sonnar-50mm-f2-Reentrant-Leica-Copy-Russian/324029885573?hash=item4b71afac85:g:RuMAAOSwN6FdFacL 100% Genuine lens for a Fed camera, as said before: a late 1946 lens, BUT not a fake! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickjazz Posted April 18, 2020 Share #60 Posted April 18, 2020 A few years ago - I think, hard to relate time these days - I showed images of a Zeiss jena 5cm f2 collapsible. The person who sold it to me tried to have it authenticated by some knowledgeable Zeiss optics collectors. In the end they weren't exactly sure what the lens is but they concluded it was not a Russian lens. That lens has a sn of 2396819 which puts it at 1939, though the lens could have been assembled from parts at some other time. The lens is nice in that when collapsed, it's small like other collapsibles. Optics to me are similar to any Zeiss f2 contax lens. Classic sonnar look. Images of that lens are probably still on this site but I didn't look for them. The Sonnar ltm subject an interesting puzzle -M 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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