Survey: Leica M EV1 – Future or mistake?

[pgk]

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10 hours ago, jonoslack said:

The M EV1 might not be the pinnacle of technological advancement, but there isn’t anything else quite like it, and there are circumstances where it’s great to use.

Well, there are a number of EVF cameras which are quite like it when using adapted M lenses and you are absolutely right in that there will be circumstances when it will be great to use and extremely effective in use. However, the subtle advantages of an M-EV1 such as M lens adapted sensor, auto magnification and form factor are very expensive. I use Sony A7 series with a vast array of 'adapted' lenses including M lenses and despite some shortcomings the results are generally excellent. But using stuff critically requires a slowing down of technique and this is hardly the same as using an rfM from most comments and image posts on the forum. IMO cameras like the M-EV1 or Sonys, using adapters, are probably at their best for tripod mounted relatively static photography. They can be used handheld for other genres but can be tricky to use quickly and effectively. 

So as far as I can see the situation Leica in is one of showing/promoting what the M-EV1 is actually for, what its best at and why it isn't simply an EVF replacement for an rfM. Associating it with the M was and is in some ways logical, in other ways not. Time will tell.

[LocalHero1953]

8 hours ago, jaapv said:

It is not meant to be sold in huge numbers outside the Leica community

 

19 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Just looking at the camera and common sense

I.e. the same reply 100% of the people on this forum will give when asked for the evidence for a statement of opinion !

[SrMi]

14 minutes ago, pgk said:

Well, there are a number of EVF cameras which are quite like it when using adapted M lenses and you are absolutely right in that there will be circumstances when it will be great to use and extremely effective in use. However, the subtle advantages of an M-EV1 such as M lens adapted sensor, auto magnification and form factor are very expensive. I use Sony A7 series with a vast array of 'adapted' lenses including M lenses and despite some shortcomings the results are generally excellent. But using stuff critically requires a slowing down of technique and this is hardly the same as using an rfM from most comments and image posts on the forum. IMO cameras like the M-EV1 or Sonys, using adapters, are probably at their best for tripod mounted relatively static photography. They can be used handheld for other genres but can be tricky to use quickly and effectively. 

So as far as I can see the situation Leica in is one of showing/promoting what the M-EV1 is actually for, what its best at and why it isn't simply an EVF replacement for an rfM. Associating it with the M was and is in some ways logical, in other ways not. Time will tell.

In my travel photography, I regularly use Visoflex on M11. I do not carry a tripod. Alan Schaller regularly uses Visoflex or LCD. He does not shoot from a tripod. I posit that most use of Visoflex and M is handheld. I also believe that Sony and SL users with mounted M lenses use them mainly handheld.

[pgk]

37 minutes ago, SrMi said:

In my travel photography, I regularly use Visoflex on M11. I do not carry a tripod. Alan Schaller regularly uses Visoflex or LCD. He does not shoot from a tripod. I posit that most use of Visoflex and M is handheld. I also believe that Sony and SL users with mounted M lenses use them mainly handheld.

You may well do, but to achieve precise focus using an EVF camera and a manual focus lens is slower than using an RF camera. With an RF camera which can use a Visoflex you have the best of both worlds, with an M-EV1 you do not, you just have a generally slower to use camera. I use my Sony with manual lenses almost entirely tripod mounted, otherwise, for handheld use, Sony AF lenses are much more straightforward to use (and if needed, which is rarely, refocus manually).

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

You may well do, but to achieve precise focus using an EVF camera and a manual focus lens is slower than using an RF camera.

Yes, though you can often achieve a more precise focus with magnification than in an RF. However, that does not mean that EVF photography is best used on a tripod or only for static subjects, as you claimed. Prefocusing, as done by HCB, is still an option with M-EV1.

 

Edited 7 hours ago by SrMi

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

 

I.e. the same reply 100% of the people on this forum will give when asked for the evidence for a statement of opinion !

Common sense is not so common, even on this forum, I fear. And since when does an opinion have to be peer-reviewed? 

[SrMi]

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1 hour ago, pgk said:

Well, there are a number of EVF cameras which are quite like it

I own and occasionally use almost every EVF brand available, and none is like it. Cameras are not about specs alone.

 

1 hour ago, pgk said:

However, the subtle advantages of an M-EV1 such as M lens adapted sensor, auto magnification and form factor are very expensive.

Yes, they are expensive, but the advantages are not subtle if you include ergonomics in your list.

1 hour ago, pgk said:

I use Sony A7 series with a vast array of 'adapted' lenses including M lenses and despite some shortcomings the results are generally excellent.

Sony cameras have always produced excellent results. That is not their problem.

Edited 8 hours ago by SrMi

[pgk]

3 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Cameras are not about specs alone.

Yes, they are expensive, but the advantages are not subtle if you include ergonomics in your list.

Well, as I always contended in the relevant thread, the M-EV1 was always about form factor and not realities. If you are prepared to pay for form factor, Leica have instigated such a camera, but at a price. To me there has to be a balance between ergonomics, specifications and price. I cannot see buying any more new Leica gear because, to be blunt, it is totally overpriced for what you get, specifications are no longer based on usability and expected life of gear is no longer than other manufacturers. I can get excellent photographic equipment for a fraction of the price of Leicas, and to be perfectly honest I will question whether I replace the M bodies that  I own (and thoroughly enjoy using) when they eventually stop working. I can get excellent result from gear which might not be as nice as Leicas, but which I can live with very happily. The M-EV1 has confirmed my suspicions that Leica is now firmly in the territory of making nice, luxury products to satisfy demand and, whilst capable of good results, they no longer have any edge because that is no longer Leica's aim. Pity.

[jonoslack]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Source? Or guesswork?

I have no info about Leica's market positioning of the EV1, but I can see how it would appeal to younger non-Leica owners wanting a piece of the iconic Leica action.

On a Leica forum full of old people, we've learned the value of a rangefinder ourselves or from parents with them. That leaves a very large potential market (including in Leica's non-English-speaking growth markets) who have barely heard of them. 'Rangefinder' to them means a simple slab-shaped camera without a pentaprism or EVF hump.

The source was the LSI meeting in Dublin a couple of years ago.

There were lots of questions from the floor and Stefan basically said - if you reckon your membership will buy x thousand (can't remember the umber 2 or 10 I think!) then it's worth making.

And also Chats and Bill Rosaeur's interview in Wetzlar in June:

https://chatsphotog.com/musings/f/stefan-daniel-on-the-leica-m-ev1

I quote from the interview:

 

Question 1: When you first heard of the idea to replace the opto-mechanical rangefinder what went through your mind? 

Answer: Abandoning the rangefinder for an EVF was never in question, but the Leica M11  was conceptualized so that a version with EVF would be feasible some day. 

A couple of years later, at the LSI meeting in Dublin, Ireland, I was grilled by many attendees, all asking for an EVF-equipped camera based on an M camera body, capable of utilizing M lenses. I came back to Wetzlar and relaunched the initiative to bring this to life, and our decision-making was further aided by LUF and LSI through surveys and inputs. 

However,  the Leica M11 architecture had been laid out to accommodate an EVF at some point, but it wasn’t followed up.. This  allowed us to have a ready launch platform if the concept proved viable. The Leica M EV1 is exotic – such cameras typically offer autofocus, but Elsie would continue to rely on manually-focused Leica M lenses, which is a clear differentiating factor for Leica. 

 

 

[jonoslack]

16 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I own and occasionally use almost every EVF brand available, and none is like it. Cameras are not about specs alone.

 

Yes, they are expensive, but the advantages are not subtle if you include ergonomics in your list.

Sony cameras have always produced excellent results. That is not their problem.

Thank you - Perfect

[LocalHero1953]

49 minutes ago, jaapv said:

And since when does an opinion have to be peer-reviewed? 

A bit OTT.

Your initial post read like a statement of fact - but turned out to be an opinion - that's why I asked.

 

Edit. These conversations are far better held face to face in a real bar. Much less scope for misunderstandings.

Edited 7 hours ago by LocalHero1953

[LocalHero1953]

26 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

The source was the LSI meeting in Dublin a couple of years ago.

 

 

Yes, I'd seen that, thanks. It was some time ago though, and I'd be surprised if Leica didn't expect to sell it as much to newbies to Leica.

I wonder how many they need to sell to make a profit? Or if their aim is not to make a profit with this version, but just to use it as a 'low cost' market testing exercise?

Edited 7 hours ago by LocalHero1953

[jonoslack]

4 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Yes, I'd seen that, thanks. It was some time ago though, and I'd be surprised if Leica didn't expect to sell it as much to newbies to Leica.

I wonder how many they need to sell to make a profit? Or if their aim is not to make a profit with this version, but just to use it as a 'low cost' market testing exercise?

I wonder too - but I don't think they will need to sell many - As Stefan said, they designed the M11 with the possibility in mind, and there aren't any new components. I'm sure they would like to make a profit. 

The thing is there are too many imponderables with a launch like this - I. honestly think they saw that 'some' customers said they wanted it, it was easy to do so they did it. . . . . . waiting to see what happens - I don't suppose they would be worried by the kerfuffle here (it was inevitable) - it all depends on sales over a couple of years. 

Thinking of the fact that it was in their mind when designing the M11 - I wonder if focus confirmation (which really needs PDAF points on the sensor) will be in their mind when designing the M12? One might hope so!

Best

Jono

[SrMi]

6 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Thinking of the fact that it was in their mind when designing the M11 - I wonder if focus confirmation (which really needs PDAF points on the sensor) will be in their mind when designing the M12? One might hope so!

I hope they add more focus aids, though I am surprised about the adverse reactions with the current status. Sony and SLR cameras were always touted as excellent (better?) alternatives to M lenses. I do not believe that they have any better focus confirmation tools than M-EV1.

[jaapv]

32 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

I wonder too - but I don't think they will need to sell many - As Stefan said, they designed the M11 with the possibility in mind, and there aren't any new components. I'm sure they would like to make a profit. 

The thing is there are too many imponderables with a launch like this - I. honestly think they saw that 'some' customers said they wanted it, it was easy to do so they did it. . . . . . waiting to see what happens - I don't suppose they would be worried by the kerfuffle here (it was inevitable) - it all depends on sales over a couple of years. 

Thinking of the fact that it was in their mind when designing the M11 - I wonder if focus confirmation (which really needs PDAF points on the sensor) will be in their mind when designing the M12? One might hope so!

Best

Jono

Does it really need the sensor. A long time ago I had an Olympus OM40 which had a little green focus confirmation light and of course no sensor. I never thought about the way it worked though. It might have been based on Leica’s original Correfot AF as perfected by Minolta. 

[SrMi]

8 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Does it really need the sensor. A long time ago I had an Olympus OM40 which had a little green focus confirmation light and of course no sensor. I never thought about the way it worked though. It might be based on Leica’s original AF as perfected by Minolta. 

I would think that contrast detection could work, but without specifying the direction.

[jaapv]

5 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I would think that contrast detection could work, but without specifying the direction.

PDAF is faster but CDAF  more accurate.  But as the M needs a very specific sensor configuration I wonder whether AF enabled sensors are avalaible. I guess that the bespoke M 11 one is expensive enough without this added complication 

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Yes, I'd seen that, thanks. It was some time ago though, and I'd be surprised if Leica didn't expect to sell it as much to newbies to Leica.

I wonder how many they need to sell to make a profit?  

Doesn’t work that way. Leica isn’t selling just this one item.

[charlesphoto99]

5 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I have no info about Leica's market positioning of the EV1, but I can see how it would appeal to younger non-Leica owners wanting a piece of the iconic Leica action.

On a Leica forum full of old people, we've learned the value of a rangefinder ourselves or from parents with them. That leaves a very large potential market (including in Leica's non-English-speaking growth markets) who have barely heard of them. 'Rangefinder' to them means a simple slab-shaped camera without a pentaprism or EVF hump.

Sorry, I just don't buy this appealing to a younger market canard. When Leica's most basic lens, the 50 Summicron, is now over $3k new, there are far too many other options out there to spend that kind of money. I see the MEV1 as mostly aimed at legacy users. And just like the revival of turntables and LPs, younger users are actually more fascinated by the film Leica's, and the rangefinder in used digital models. Because older rich people tend to buy, not use, and cast off for the next best thing, there's always a good supply of near mint M's and lenses on the used market. 

IMO, they should have made it look less like a Q and more like an M3 (retro appeal), as well as waited until they could sink a better CPU and EVF in it and figure out heat management for video (a true younger demographic appeal), as well as more unique focus aids. But they obviously felt pressured to bring it out in its current form. 

Edited 5 hours ago by charlesphoto99

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[jonoslack]

41 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Sorry, I just don't buy this appealing to a younger market canard. When Leica's most basic lens, the 50 Summicron, is now over $3k new, there are far too many other options out there to spend that kind of money. I see the MEV1 as mostly aimed at legacy users. And just like the revival of turntables and LPs, younger users are actually more fascinated by the film Leica's, and the rangefinder in used digital models. Because older rich people tend to buy, not use, and cast off for the next best thing, there's always a good supply of near mint M's and lenses on the used market. 

This idea that younger users don't have any money! At recent LSE meetings it's the 30 and 40 somethings who have all the latest and expensive kit - especially in the far east where Leica is definitely not the old person's prerogative - I agree that young people are buying film cameras - but they are also very much into icons . . .  which the digital M really is . 

 

44 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

IMO, they should have made it look less like a Q and more like an M3 (retro appeal), as well as waited until they could sink a better CPU and EVF in it and figure out heat management for video (a true younger demographic appeal), as well as more unique focus aids. But they obviously felt pressured to bring it out in its current form. 

I don't think it looks like a Q - it looks like an M, because it IS an M in every respect except the rangefinder. - they didn't need to make it look more retro - it already is retro!. There wasn't pressure to bring it out in it's current form - there just wasn't any question of bringing it out in any other form! They certainly weren't going to put money into R&D to turn something they weren't that keen on making into something completely different!

I really do believe Stefan Daniel about this - they had decided not to do it, but he was asked by so many people he thought - let's just do it and see what happens. We are going to see what happens - I'm already getting messages from lots of people who have it and really like it.

I think there really is a lot of over-thinking going on here