Leica M EV2 -- your next camera?

[Dazzajl]

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33 minutes ago, Chris W said:

Fuji cameras always seem to pollute any discussion about Leica

I think a lot of Leica fans and users would like to see Leica follow Fuji in being more fearless. To push boundaries and innovate more. 

[Chris W]

Well I strongly disagree. I much prefer Leica to Fuji and I've owned three fairly recent Fuji cameras.

[padam]

30 minutes ago, Chris W said:

Electronic shutters have more issues (artificial light flicker and rolling shutter) so most e-shutter only bodies are more at the affordable end of the market, where people accept the odd compromise. The number one thing that stopped buying Pixxi or Sigma was the lack of mechanical shutter.

Well, a lot more people use the electronic shutter in their smartphones for taking photos. And those pictures don't seem to show those anomalies.
So it is inevitable that big sensors will get at least to that level, just not right now.
And it's also a question of manufactures already having "power" (technology), but how they actually "abuse power" (while Sony has many different sensors, they don't just provide any sensor to any other interested party).

The main thing is that through the eyes of enthusiasts, a "recipe" with all "ingredients" is already here to make a better M EV1 without the stupid price. (with some challenges)
But will anybody bother to "cook" it? No, because it doesn't fit their main interest.

A lot of people are happy using Voigtländer glass on their Leicas.
They've come way closer than they used to, so they play a significant role in keeping the M system attractive. (I know, Chinese companies are on the rise, too.)
With an EVF, the slightly bigger footprint of some of their lenses would become less important.
So maybe one day they collaborate with another camera manufacturer to make a camera body to match their lenses.
With the absence of a rangefinder (the ability to use more existing parts), and no need for AF, it's as "easy" as it's ever going to get.


While an M11 can be defended by saying it's unique, the M EV1 is much harder to defend (besides it's design, which already looks far less aesthetically pleasing).
It simply isn't special - or even through the eyes of hardcore worshippers, it is at the very least way less special than it used to be.
Just something Leica makes that others don't want to directly compete with. (as of now)

[Chris W]

3 minutes ago, padam said:

It simply isn't special 

Well it has the Leica design (look), which is attractive to a lot of people (like a LV bag) and it takes M mount lenses. 

But yeah, for less money there are other camera systems that are easier use and/or accept M mount lenses.

[Kiwimac]

1 hour ago, Dazzajl said:

I think a lot of Leica fans and users would like to see Leica follow Fuji in being more fearless. To push boundaries and innovate more. 

The only FF feature I’d like to see in Leica is the film simulations. 

[Kiwimac]

3 hours ago, vkdev said:

I will trade my SL for M EV because I don't use SL.

Do you have SL glass or did you use it just for M?

[Kiwimac]

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My next camera? I don’t think so. 
 

Firstly, I don’t really need a next camera. My M11 Safari pretty much covers the bases I need covered and as long as as it continues to work, I think it will do a long turn in my bag. 
 

Now, I was considering trying to work out how to pay for an M11M. The question would now be will there be an EV1M….? If there was a preowned M11M at the same price, that might be a more interesting thing to contemplate. 

[Dazzajl]

6 minutes ago, Kiwimac said:

The only FF feature I’d like to see in Leica is the film simulations. 

The films sims are fun to use, I have several cameras with them and they can put you in a frame of mind or be a starting point with raw files. 
 

I don’t think Leica should copy Fuji, or anyone else. I’m more saying that they could be far less reserved in the concepts they work up and take on to production. Fuji are just the best example of a camera company that dare to go outside the existing. Sometimes it works and spawns a line, like the X100 or GFX-R. Sometimes it burns and kills a line, like the X-Pro 3 

[Dazzajl]

1 hour ago, Chris W said:

Well I strongly disagree. I much prefer Leica to Fuji and I've owned three fairly recent Fuji cameras.

I know your dislike for Fuji, it’s in almost every thread. And I’m not saying Leica should make Fuji like cameras. Only that it looks like a lot of Leica owners would like to see them be braver in their new offerings sometimes. 
 

It’s been a very very long time since Leica revolutionised a sector of the camera market and I’m not the only one who’d really enjoy seeing them do that again. 

[newtoleica]

3 minutes ago, Dazzajl said:

It’s been a very very long time since Leica revolutionised a sector of the camera market and I’m not the only one who’d really enjoy seeing them do that again. 

Leica are a small company and I think it’s too much to expect them to innovate in an area with such strong existing  competition. See the EV1 as a toe in the water like the original Q was. Let’s see if it sells and creates a new line with R&D. Lots of hints that the main focus of R&D is on the RF M line and improving that experience- it hasn’t changed since the 240 and hardly much then. I’m pleased they are concentrating on that…. Selectable single frame lines? Electronic rather than mechanical parallax correction? Auto magnification on the VF to accompany wider or longer lenses better? A diopter adjustment in the standard M? Cheaper to produce and adjust (more robust) RF system? Loads to do!  

[Stef63]

4 hours ago, setuporg said:

Given that M EV1 lacks everything we imagined, might as well start the list of what actually should be in one to make it useful.

I imagined a week ago :

1. A M11 with the RF replaced by a built-in Visoflex and nothing much more. 
2. A flood of messages full of disappointment and what the EV1 should have been. 

Well, at least I was right on both and I told you so. 😀

 

Edited 15 hours ago by Stef63

[Dazzajl]

5 minutes ago, newtoleica said:

Leica are a small company and I think it’s too much to expect them to innovate in an area with such strong existing  competition. See the EV1 as a toe in the water like the original Q was. Let’s see if it sells and creates a new line with R&D. Lots of hints that the main focus of R&D is on the RF M line and improving that experience- it hasn’t changed since the 240 and hardly much then. I’m pleased they are concentrating on that…. Selectable single frame lines? Electronic rather than mechanical parallax correction? Auto magnification on the VF to accompany wider or longer lenses better? A diopter adjustment in the standard M? Cheaper to produce and adjust (more robust) RF system? Loads to do!  

There is no criticism offered or implied by me on the M-EV1, though I might have called it the EV1-M. It’s not for me but it’s a beautiful camera. 
 

I know Leica are among the smallest in the market but they have partnered with Panasonic, Sony, Fuji and Kodak in their digital era with some great results along the way. The S was quite a mad, left field idea when it was launched and the TL was an incredible bit of design. Neither exactly flew but they both demonstrated a desire to push at the edges and both still have a very grateful fan base. 

[SrMi]

3 hours ago, Chris W said:

Well I strongly disagree. I much prefer Leica to Fuji and I've owned three fairly recent Fuji cameras.

Dito.

[IkarusJohn]

Gosh, the M EV2 looks really exciting based on the posts so far!

[vkdev]

7 hours ago, Kiwimac said:

Do you have SL glass or did you use it just for M?

yes, Ive SL lenses. Apo-cron 28, pana 50 1.4, zooms 16-35 and 24-105. 

I've used the 50 1.4 lens three times in four(!) years. The 16-35mm lens – about two times (one of my favourite M-lenses is 21 1.4). I used the APO-Cron 28 (fantastic lens!) for no more than five days in this year. But I often used the 24–105 while traveling. I tried to fall in love with the SL camera in different ways, but I just couldn't. I plan to use the Leica EV1 for shooting people with lenses like the 90 Cron and the 50 1.0 wide open. 

Also, I can't fully trust the Leica SL for working with M lenses simply because my adapter doesn't have a hard stop at infinity. When I shoot something far away, I have to adjust the focus backward. I think the EV1 will solve this problem.

[FrozenInTime]

8 hours ago, padam said:

Well, a lot more people use the electronic shutter in their smartphones for taking photos. And those pictures don't seem to show those anomalies.
So it is inevitable that big sensors will get at least to that level, just not right now

The small phone sensors have good read out times are low 5 to 10 ms  https://www.cined.com/iphone-15-pro-lab-test-rolling-shutter-dynamic-range-and-exposure-latitude/

In general the larger the sensor and the higher the pixel count the slower it gets. Semi-stacking and Stacking changes the game. https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/

The 60 Mpixel sensor Leica use is about as bad as it gets at 100ms.

The S1II and ZR semi-stacked designs come it at ~ 15ms ( video read modes with lower bit depth are faster than photo mode results  )

 

 

[LocalHero1953]

8 hours ago, Dazzajl said:

It’s been a very very long time since Leica revolutionised a sector of the camera market and I’m not the only one who’d really enjoy seeing them do that again. 

I guess that was the M launch. They appear to have done pretty well since then without revolutionising anything. They just make cameras and lenses that (IMO) make it easier to take excellent photos (if only I had the talent).

[Kiwimac]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I guess that was the M launch. They appear to have done pretty well since then without revolutionising anything. They just make cameras and lenses that (IMO) make it easier to take excellent photos (if only I had the talent).

I’d say the Q was fairly revolutionary in its own way. 

[setuporg]

15 hours ago, vkdev said:

I will trade my SL for M EV because I don't use SL.

That will now buy an extra horseshoe cover for then M.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[setuporg]

10 hours ago, SrMi said:

Dito.

I was an early adopter of the X100 when a bunch of of folks sent it back because they could not focus by wire.  Granted, it was in its infancy.  Moved on to X-Pro1/2, and even had X10 for fun, a cute li’l camera.  The OVF-EVF is an amazing concept.  It is in a different class of innovation.  Leica can learn to do new things.  While misleadingly named, the GFX100RF also has innovative buttons and overall Fuji can teach Leica a thing or two.  No harm to learn from Fuji.