There is NO "Digital Rangefinder Experience"

[pgk]

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4 minutes ago, Chris W said:

Because  people who love rangefinder focussing tend to give up on it when they develop eyesight issues.

Unfortunately that won't change because visual discrimination is required for assessing coincidence and as eyes age this becomes increasingly difficult. The best thing about the M-EV1 is undoubtedly the viewfinder with dioptric correction which will help. But will this be used on an rfM? I suspect there are optical issues in doing so and it might just be down to size with the other optical parts.

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[rogxwhit]

I see a lot of cameras with no rangefinder at all - but just an optical viewfinder - described as 'rangefinders'.  Work that one out!  The term is obviously a loose one in many quarters ....  

 

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, adan said:

That is true of every internet post ever made. 😁

The only thing that changes is what it says about the person writing it. Which is not limited to rudeness or politeness.

Whether or not you meant me, I acknowledge the truth in that!🙂

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, Kiwimac said:

 

I saw comment that it would be great for people who’ didn’t want to learn how to use a rangefinder’. Seriously? It’s not terribly hard to learn. It’s pretty much identical to focusing a manual SLR: twist barrel until image in focus and press button. Not a lot to learn. 
 

I agree. But (a) how many people who have got into photography in the last 15 years have used a SLR and (b) how many people who have grown up with EVFs will believe this stranger on the internet who’s into heritage cameras that rangefinder focusing is easy-peasy? 

You’ll need to become a recognised (young, handsome, motor mouth and ignorant) influencer before you can be that persuasive!

[Chris W]

I know I keep repeating it, but Fuji market most of their cameras as 'rangefinder style'. In debates about Leica M, usually the price, I have had people tell me to buy an X100VI as it's exactly the same as an M but more affordable. 

[rxj]

4 hours ago, setuporg said:

To answer many replies in various threads -- no, there is no such thing as digital rangefinder experience.

A rangefinder is a mechanical device that couples to Leica M lenses that allow for it, that is, that are real manual focus Leica lenses.

Simulating "rangefinder" with pixels is

• Bullshit
• Abomination
• Abhorrent
• Fake
• Terrible
• Ugly
• Stupid
• Nonsensical
• Idiotic

... you get the gist.  Do not propose it.  Do not speak about "digital rangefinder experience."  There is no such thing; there's never been such a thing; and there will never be such a thing.  Same as "digital childbirth experience."

The entitlement here - "Why doesn't company x only make what I want and if it doesn't fit into my definition then it must be horrible"

Why so butt hurt. The Leica M EV1 can't hurt you and will sell without you.

Leica is a business and will sell cameras and continue to sell cameras with or without you.

 

[adan]

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30 minutes ago, Chris W said:

With the M EV-1, I do not see why they couldn't have invented a digital way of two images coming together, rangefinder style, perhaps with 'zoom in' so you could see how tight the two images were.

It would face the same problem as the Fujis, or for that matter classical, SLR split-images finders (but less so).

For a reason best expressed by Magnum photographer Charlie Harbutt over 50 years ago: "SLR (or any other focus-plane) photographers see the world at f/1.4; Leica M photographers see everything sharp."

The fully-transparent screenless window finder of the classic M projects a "virtual image" of the scene, that HAS NO plane of focus. It just floats in space, and the user's eye can see it as sharp (ideally - so long as the eye has not lost its "accomodation," or ability to focus the eye's lens on a virtual plane), wherever it is.

(Sadly, loss of accomodation (the eye's muscles become too weak or ossified to stretch or compress, and thus focus the eye's lens itself) is another ailment of aging - the reason for bifocal or varifocal glasses, or Leica's add-on eyepiece diopters. Even without AMD, cataracts or glaucoma,)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accommodation_(vertebrate_eye)

Once we "collapse" the image onto a specific plane (a ground glass screen or a sensor-plus-EVF screen) - we lose that virtual-image seeing.

Therefore the sensor itself will produce a blurry image - until it is correctly focused. You see the contradiction there ("You must focus the sensor's image - with a viewing system that will not display the image sharply UNTIL it is focused.") Catch-22.

Or as Terry Pratchett put it sometimes, "Open this shipping box - using the crowbar that is inside the box."

"A digital way of two images coming together rangefinder-style" would only be sharp in the last few mm of focusing.

............

While on the subject of M focusing techniques - remember that there are TWO ways to use the M rangefinder patch.

The one most people use is the COINCIDENT method - try to line up multiple tiny details inside the RF patch. Which can get really hard if their contrast is low for any reason (including eye ailments).

OR

Use the sharp edges of the RF patch to align the inner and outer parts of a single line - that is the true SPLIT-IMAGE method. To be found in ANY Leica M manual (except the EV1's, no doubt 😉). 

I use the split-image method if the details inside the coincident patch are a little blurry these days - because it is much easier and less confusing to the eye to look at and compare two sharp edges divided across two other sharp edges, than to align two masses of many little things.

Basic physiology - the eye/visual cortex system is best at aligning a broken single line, and a little less capable of aligning a "texture" of smaller elements, and worst of all at evaluating "fuzzy or not-fuzzy" precisely.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

[dem331]

The best way to use a rangefinder for me when focusing conditions are difficult/ critical is to use the split-image method and then stop down two f stops (adjusting exposure with shutter speed or ISO)

This approach has made me enjoy rangefinders again. If I l want wide apertures, or lenses wider then 28mm or longer than 50mm, I use the SL system. 
 

I wish Leica made some more modern small f2.8 lenses. All the Noctiluxes and Summiluxes are taking photography in the wrong direction in my opinion - too big and too hit and miss on a rangefinder.  If you use OVF, then it’s ok, but it is not a rangefinder anymore and you might as well use the SL and get better performance. Or a Q, noi wonder it sells well. 
 

I also think that stopping down a bit does make you think more about composition of the image. 

I know my opinion won’t be popular and I’m glad that all these very expensive wide lenses keep Leica in profit. But I see Peter Karbe’s line of “lenses are meant to be shot wide open or you might as well use an iPhone” (this is not a direct quote but he says things like this) as largely self-serving marketing talk. 

[pgk]

42 minutes ago, adan said:

The fully-transparent screenless window finder of the classic M projects a "virtual image" of the scene, that HAS NO plane of focus. It just floats in space, and the user's eye can see it as sharp (ideally - so long as the eye has not lost its "accomodation," or ability to focus the eye's lens on a virtual plane), wherever it is.

The virtual image is planar and sits at an effective distance for which the eye needs to be corrected if it cannot focus at that distance unaided. It has to have a plane of focus or it would not be possible for the eye to see it. The 'problem' with rangefinder focussing and older eyes is one of visual discrimination even when dioptric correction enable the virtual image to be focussed on and will be down to factors such as lowering of contrast and acuity. When the rangefinder co-incidence cannot be accurately guaged then it is time to stop trying to focus using a rangefinder. This would not change even if a way to mimic the rangefinder electronically is found. Ageing eyes are a problem whch may probably best be solved using autofocus or focus confirmation is co-incidence cannot be accurately determined.

[RF’sDelight]

Quotes from Leica Camera Website…
- - - -
M EV1
This makes manual focusing a matter of pure precision. (…) For photographs as distinctive as your perspective on the world.
- - - -
M11
As a rangefinder camera, it offers a unique shooting experience that fosters a deeper connection with the subject.
- - - -

Two different ways of shooting more or less manually with M (mount) lenses. In the end a matter of taste and belief—as always.

Nevertheless I do agree to the headline of this thread, technically and emotionally. 😎

[Winedemonium]

Actually my interest in the long-rumoured M EV1 was three-fold:

1. To retain the form factor of an M, as well as it's relatively low weight (box ticked - indeed, it is lighter than the M11, even lighter still than an M11 with Visoflex; and much lighter than an SL/2/3). I'm very happy with the result here. 

2. An EVF with good eye relief so I could leave my graduated spectacles on (and adjust the diopter) - the jury is out on this one. Tech spec I have seen is 20.75mm eye point, which is not great. I'm just going to have to try one out to know how much of the EVF image will be visible to my left eye with my glasses on. Being able to see the whole frame (or close to it) without peering around, was for me the main reason I was interested in the M EV1. I still love the Leica OVF/rangefinder experience, but only the 50mm framelines (0.72 / 0.73) are now viewable all at once for me. 

3. My personal hope (and here I partly disagree with the OP) was that in Leica's implementation of this, some sort of EVF simulation of the rangefinder patch focusing method (ahem, thank you @adan - I mean methods) would feature. That would have required perhaps either some sort of focusing-cam mechanical implementation inside the camera (which would in turn "move" an electronic patch across the EVF as you focus the lens), relying on good mechanical alignment as in all other current Ms.
Or, perhaps the same effect could be simulated as the sensor detects the lens coming into focus on a simulated central "patch". In any case I imagined Leica was going to deliver enhanced, perhaps novel EVF focusing aids on this camera (over an above zooming, focusing peaking, etc) given the camera's raison d'être is use with manual focus lenses. After all, we might excuse the limitations of some autofocus system camera's manual focus aids, but a mechanical-only EVF camera should be cutting edge here. From what I can see in the reviews so far there are no innovative focus aids in this camera. Have I missed something?

@setuporg - you may not be a taker for such a camera, but I would be. I will continue to use my "real" M cameras (and I'm glad to see Leica are being careful to distinguish the M EV1, from the M11...), but I would have a use case for something closer to the M experience than my SL2 in other use cases with my M lenses.

[student]

8 hours ago, setuporg said:

To answer many replies in various threads -- no, there is no such thing as digital rangefinder experience.

A rangefinder is a mechanical device that couples to Leica M lenses that allow for it, that is, that are real manual focus Leica lenses.

Simulating "rangefinder" with pixels is

• Bullshit
• Abomination
• Abhorrent
• Fake
• Terrible
• Ugly
• Stupid
• Nonsensical
• Idiotic

... you get the gist.  Do not propose it.  Do not speak about "digital rangefinder experience."  There is no such thing; there's never been such a thing; and there will never be such a thing.  Same as "digital childbirth experience."

Gosh, all true ...... but where is the urgency to get all charged up? M11P is there and M12 will be coming along in a wee while

[greyhound]

Hello,

As a dedicated Leica photographer, I don't just keep Leicas in my display case, so I'm surprised by the hype surrounding this "new release." A few years ago, I bought a Fuji XPro 2 so that I could use my 5M lenses, which I use on the M8, on a camera with an EVF using an adapter. This gave me the opportunity to use the XP2's viewfinder in full-frame mode and also in "rangefinder mode" with these lenses. While this rangefinder is certainly not a replacement for the M's mechanical viewfinder, it allows you to survey the entire image field, just like with a traditional rangefinder. The XP also offers focus assistance in several steps and colors, two SD card slots, and a USB port. Besides the smaller sensor size (assuming you really need a 60M), what Leica is now touting as "groundbreaking" has been offered here for years. You have to be really into the red dot to spend €8,000 on it. I say this after 45 years of being a Leica photographer. (But most M11 EVFs will probably disappear back into display cases like so many Leicas before them.) 😀

[Smogg]

8 hours ago, setuporg said:

To answer many replies in various threads -- no, there is no such thing as digital rangefinder experience.

A rangefinder is a mechanical device that couples to Leica M lenses that allow for it, that is, that are real manual focus Leica lenses.

Simulating "rangefinder" with pixels is

• Bullshit
• Abomination
• Abhorrent
• Fake
• Terrible
• Ugly
• Stupid
• Nonsensical
• Idiotic

... you get the gist.  Do not propose it.  Do not speak about "digital rangefinder experience."  There is no such thing; there's never been such a thing; and there will never be such a thing.  Same as "digital childbirth experience."

In fact, the introduction of the EV1 highlights just how awesome the M11 is. It only took one element to change, and the result is… what it is.

[mboerma]

I love the rangefinder in the M11 (and the ones before it). But I also like to use M lenses on SL camera's. This new M EV1 is a great mix of both. I'm not (yet) tempted to buy one. An EVF has its own challenges and benefits. Just like a rangefinder mechanism. If manufacturers want to try alternative techniques to help you that is fine with me. Most of the time it is just a matter of practice. And more practice. 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, greyhound said:

 

 

 

Hello,

As a dedicated Leica photographer, I don't just keep Leicas in my display case, so I'm surprised by the hype surrounding this "new release." A few years ago, I bought a Fuji XPro 2 so that I could use my 5M lenses, which I use on the M8, on a camera with an EVF using an adapter. This gave me the opportunity to use the XP2's viewfinder in full-frame mode and also in "rangefinder mode" with these lenses. While this rangefinder is certainly not a replacement for the M's mechanical viewfinder, it allows you to survey the entire image field, just like with a traditional rangefinder. The XP also offers focus assistance in several steps and colors, two SD card slots, and a USB port. Besides the smaller sensor size (assuming you really need a 60M), what Leica is now touting as "groundbreaking" has been offered here for years. You have to be really into the red dot to spend €8,000 on it. I say this after 45 years of being a Leica photographer. (But most M11 EVFs will probably disappear back into display cases like so many Leicas before them.) 😀

I own/owned various XPro models and the shooting experience does not compare to shooting with Leica cameras.

[jaapv]

5 hours ago, RF’sDelight said:

Quotes from Leica Camera Website…
- - - -
M EV1
This makes manual focusing a matter of pure precision. (…) For photographs as distinctive as your perspective on the world.
- - - -
M11
As a rangefinder camera, it offers a unique shooting experience that fosters a deeper connection with the subject.
- - - -

Two different ways of shooting more or less manually with M (mount) lenses. In the end a matter of taste and belief—as always.

Nevertheless I do agree to the headline of this thread, technically and emotionally. 😎

That only confirms my opinion of marketing speak. 

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, adan said:

It would face the same problem as the Fujis, or for that matter classical, SLR split-images finders (but less so).

For a reason best expressed by Magnum photographer Charlie Harbutt over 50 years ago: "SLR (or any other focus-plane) photographers see the world at f/1.4; Leica M photographers see everything sharp."

The fully-transparent screenless window finder of the classic M projects a "virtual image" of the scene, that HAS NO plane of focus. It just floats in space, and the user's eye can see it as sharp (ideally - so long as the eye has not lost its "accomodation," or ability to focus the eye's lens on a virtual plane), wherever it is.

(Sadly, loss of accomodation (the eye's muscles become too weak or ossified to stretch or compress, and thus focus the eye's lens itself) is another ailment of aging - the reason for bifocal or varifocal glasses, or Leica's add-on eyepiece diopters. Even without AMD, cataracts or glaucoma,)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accommodation_(vertebrate_eye)

Once we "collapse" the image onto a specific plane (a ground glass screen or a sensor-plus-EVF screen) - we lose that virtual-image seeing.

Therefore the sensor itself will produce a blurry image - until it is correctly focused. You see the contradiction there ("You must focus the sensor's image - with a viewing system that will not display the image sharply UNTIL it is focused.") Catch-22.

Or as Terry Pratchett put it sometimes, "Open this shipping box - using the crowbar that is inside the box."

"A digital way of two images coming together rangefinder-style" would only be sharp in the last few mm of focusing.

............

While on the subject of M focusing techniques - remember that there are TWO ways to use the M rangefinder patch.

The one most people use is the COINCIDENT method - try to line up multiple tiny details inside the RF patch. Which can get really hard if their contrast is low for any reason (including eye ailments).

OR

Use the sharp edges of the RF patch to align the inner and outer parts of a single line - that is the true SPLIT-IMAGE method. To be found in ANY Leica M manual (except the EV1's, no doubt 😉). 

I use the split-image method if the details inside the coincident patch are a little blurry these days - because it is much easier and less confusing to the eye to look at and compare two sharp edges divided across two other sharp edges, than to align two masses of many little things.

Basic physiology - the eye/visual cortex system is best at aligning a broken single line, and a little less capable of aligning a "texture" of smaller elements, and worst of all at evaluating "fuzzy or not-fuzzy" precisely.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Except for the jump in contrast that you will see when the RF patch aligns perfectly. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[jaapv]

7 hours ago, Chris W said:

I know I keep repeating it, but Fuji market most of their cameras as 'rangefinder style'. In debates about Leica M, usually the price, I have had people tell me to buy an X100VI as it's exactly the same as an M but more affordable. 

Well, it is, and more versatile, than the M EV1

[pippy]

3 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Well, it is, and more versatile, than the M EV1

I wasn't aware that the Fuli x100 series now had access to a wide range of interchangeable lenses...

Philip.