Leica M EV1: The first M with EVF instead of Rangefinder

[SrMi]

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18 minutes ago, la1402 said:

It so far has not been an issue on Nikon, why should it be on Leica?

Just the knowledge that many pixels are "simulated" hurts, though the eye does not see it in almost all cases.

Leica should implement it first in Q3 and SL3 cameras, where the sensors already have OsPDAF.

[lct]

1 hour ago, Homo Faber said:

beg to differ: One apple is focusing with a Leica M lens on a Leica MEV1 and the other apple is focusing with same Leica M lens on a Nikon ZF. Please tell me, why is the latter so much better (more reliable, more intuitive, not to mention the additional autofocus) than the former?

Sony user here. I've been using M lenses intensively with a7s1 and a7r2 bodies since 2015 and i have kept the latter but those are cameras with a Kolari mod sensor. The mod was necessary to fit WA to UWA M lenses. I've heard that some Nikon bodies do better there but they have a thicker sensor stack as well and there are Nikon bodies with Kolari mod for a reason. If you want the best camera for M lenses, there is no competition IMHO or, more exacly, there are only two competitors setting aside other Leica cameras: M11 vs MEV1. Just my 2 cents. Edit. Apologies to Pixii users, i have no experience with their full frame camera.

Edited Sunday at 12:21 PM by lct

[Paulus]

vor 51 Minuten schrieb pgk:

The risk of course, is that this strategy suggests that Leica are no longer interested in producing cameras which are the 'best' available within their genre, but are bowing to public pressure to produce mediocre offerings. I have stated this risk all along. Leica is repositioning itself in the photographic marketplace by producing the M-EV1 which is anything but a state-or-the-art EVF camera. It is however a luxury camera clearly desired by those who are prepared to pay out a premium price for a camera they want.

I think the engineers knew, years ahead of this. Erwin Puts saw the direction it was heading and left the scene:

https://photo.imx.nl/blog/

 

 

[SrMi]

15 minutes ago, pgk said:

I am sure that you are right about an internal struggle ('debate'?). I'm still unconvinced that an EVF will ever be fast on a manual focus, handheld, highly portable camera though. The two do not sit well together IMO, but best in a class of one is certainly achievable😀.

Leica Ms were always the fastest to use with zone focusing. That still works with M-EV1.

[FrozenInTime]

10 minutes ago, pgk said:

I am sure that you are right about an internal struggle ('debate'?). I'm still unconvinced that an EVF will ever be fast on a manual focus, handheld, highly portable camera though. The two do not sit well together IMO, but best in a class of one is certainly achievable😀.

The sudden renaming of the M11-V to the M-EV1 points to some heated discussions between engineering, marketing and management . I think the M-EV1 is a transitional model.

With Nikon's green box eye detection and focus confirmation, pulling a manual lens into focus could be quite rapid, if not better than the rangefinder focus then recompose approach. If the focus aid is proven reliable, it will eliminate the punch in magnify step that slows the capture process down.

The development of Nikon-RED starting with the ZR will be interesting to watch, as reliable focus of fully mechanical cine lenses is a big deal.

[FrozenInTime]

11 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Leica Ms were always the fastest to use with zone focusing. That still works with M-EV1.

Yes, fly by wire AF lenses, with no focus scales are horrible to use 

[FrozenInTime]

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17 minutes ago, Paulus said:

I think the engineers knew, years ahead of this. Erwin Puts saw the direction it was heading and left the scene:

https://photo.imx.nl/blog/

"Leica's product manager told me in one of our last conversations that indeed 24 million are more than enough, but that he didn't feel like having to keep blowing against the wind. Those 50 million pixels really aren't necessary for the photos most people take. It is only useful for enlargements. But who still does?"

🙂 

[DadDadDaddyo]

13 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

"...Those 50 million pixels really aren't necessary for the photos most people take. It is only useful for enlargements. But who still does?"

Me do!

I'm glad for every little bit of editing and cropping room!

[Smudgerer]

3 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

"Leica's product manager told me in one of our last conversations that indeed 24 million are more than enough, but that he didn't feel like having to keep blowing against the wind. Those 50 million pixels really aren't necessary for the photos most people take. It is only useful for enlargements. But who still does?"

🙂 

"But who still does?"  Well I do.......Print and enlarge any image that I feel is worth the effort, paper and inkjet ink, and invariably I do crop the original file/image, sometimes quite radically to get the content and framing that works for me.

I'm of the old mindset that if it isn't worth making a print of one of my images then it may as well be binned, and I do bin a lot of files. If one doesn't print you are not rounding the circle, obviously that's a minority view and practice these days of websites and screens, but for me that is what it is.

And, I've mentioned this before but I often get decent A1 prints out of 18mp files from my M11-D/M's...............So yes I do believe that a good updated and improved  24mp sensor is more than enough for most of one's needs these days, but the pixel race goes on and on to nowhere useful.

[Homo Faber]

vor 49 Minuten schrieb Paulus:

I think the engineers knew, years ahead of this. Erwin Puts saw the direction it was heading and left the scene:

https://photo.imx.nl/blog/

 

 

"Leica's product manager told me in one of our last conversations that indeed 24 million are more than enough, but that he didn't feel like having to keep blowing against the wind. Those 50 million pixels really aren't necessary for the photos most people take. It is only useful for enlargements. But who still does?"

Well, 24 million is enough until it isn't. In fact, there can never be enough megapixels to resolve an analogue and continuous reality into its digital and discrete image.

Edited Sunday at 01:04 PM by Homo Faber

[FrozenInTime]

30 minutes ago, DadDadDaddyo said:

Me do!

I'm glad for every little bit of editing and cropping room!

It’s good to have the option, but it has to be acknowledged everything comes with tradeoffs.

Picking a sensor, for example SL3 vs  SL3-S was not possible with the M11, alternative was to stay with the M10, M9 etc. Triple resolution marketing; saved a little disk space - that's all.

Edited Sunday at 01:20 PM by FrozenInTime

[markc2]

46 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

"But who still does?"  Well I do.......Print and enlarge any image that I feel is worth the effort, paper and inkjet ink, and invariably I do crop the original file/image, sometimes quite radically to get the content and framing that works for me.

I'm of the old mindset that if it isn't worth making a print of one of my images then it may as well be binned, and I do bin a lot of files. If one doesn't print you are not rounding the circle, obviously that's a minority view and practice these days of websites and screens, but for me that is what it is.

And, I've mentioned this before but I often get decent A1 prints out of 18mp files from my M11-D/M's...............So yes I do believe that a good updated and improved  24mp sensor is more than enough for most of one's needs these days, but the pixel race goes on and on to nowhere useful.

I agree, I like printing out my photo's from my m8.2, It looked so good when I walked by the print (not quite realizing it was mine) when laying down, I thought it was someone else's, and when I walked back and realized it was mine, I truly was blown away. 

I think the pixel race really needs to be refined, Now that we can do 40 or 60 mp, lets focus on other criteria that can make sensors better that maybe "we" haven't focused on as much as needed. 

with the new M, I wished they could have just digitized the "patch", but if your going to make the whole screen digital, you could have made a perfect representation of the rangefinder experience while most likely cutting out most of the "flaws".  How cool would it have been to have the rangefinder patch while live viewing thru the lens, make an adjustment in aperture or speed setting see a live view of those results before you take the pic. Or maybe that already exists and I just haven't played outside lately. 

Edited Sunday at 01:39 PM by markc2
more words...

[DadDadDaddyo]

Shutter speed, aperture, ISO, handheld, camera support, windows finder, through the lens finder, format size, print size....

Everything involved in making a photograph is about striking a balance. 

In a manual approach, each of these decisions is a conscious decision. 

The more of these factors that are decided without the photographer's conscious intention, the easier it is, over time for photographers to forget they've got those choices. 

Wrong for me to push it on others, but I've found real benefit from spending time with Large Format.....

Edited Sunday at 01:36 PM by DadDadDaddyo

[algrove]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

Leica Ms were always the fastest to use with zone focusing. That still works with M-EV1.

True, but with your new EV1 you cannot have an RF option where the M11+Viso2  gives one that dual option.

[algrove]

1 hour ago, FrozenInTime said:

"Leica's product manager told me in one of our last conversations that indeed 24 million are more than enough, but that he didn't feel like having to keep blowing against the wind. Those 50 million pixels really aren't necessary for the photos most people take. It is only useful for enlargements. But who still does?"

🙂 

I do!

[charlesphoto99]

5 hours ago, SrMi said:

I did not say I like his videos  ... "hold that thought" 🤣

He was part of the group of reviewers invited by Leica for the launch. This is a funny video, which shows how such a meeting goes:

 

 

Remember when Leica used to use actual photographers to promote their cameras? Salgado, Gibson, Webb, Manos, etc. I miss those days. 

[Derbyshire Man]

1 hour ago, FrozenInTime said:

With Nikon's green box eye detection and focus confirmation, pulling a manual lens into focus could be quite rapid, if not better than the rangefinder focus then recompose approach. If the focus aid is proven reliable, it will eliminate the punch in magnify step that slows the capture process down.

This would be my favoured approach. And with a higher resolution EVF eg 9mp in many situations it wouldn't be needed at all. Then again, I've not used a Leica manual lens on a sony alpha A1 II

[pgk]

38 minutes ago, DadDadDaddyo said:

Wrong for me to push it on others, but I've found real benefit from spending time with Large Format.....

Well I use MF/LF with a Sony A7 as a 'step and repeat' back. But the operation is essentially similar to LF or even more complex. And you are right in that it makes the photographing experience very different and much more considered. Paradoxically, using an M-EV1 on a tripod with care would probably make for very effective photography, but, and its a big but, that is not what the 'essence of the M' is all about. Leica are still promoting the M camera from history, as a 'street' camera, which is really no longer its forte.

Edited Sunday at 02:05 PM by pgk
typo

[DadDadDaddyo]

7 minutes ago, pgk said:

Paradoxically, using an M-EV1 on a tripod with care would probably make for very effective photography, but, and its a big but, that is not what the 'essence of the M' is all about.

I agree completely, though I still find the M11 and M11M very effective on the street.

Edited Sunday at 02:04 PM by DadDadDaddyo

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[S Maclean]

So much fun stuff int his thread. I can't resist broadening my scope beyong the EV1

• We "assume" this was rushed, but given the amount of years we have discussed this option I doubt very much this was rushed
• Some are evaluating this camera on the merits of EVF's for manual focusing accross the market.  But I don't think that's the point. Leica is not trying to make the best EVF camera in the market (indeed they seldom have the technical best cameras. Period.)  They are trying to make the best M user experience for exclusive EVF shooters (those that always have the visioflex on and shoot noctilux and long crystal all day....or are a little challenged on the eyesight.)
• Leica has never chased latest techinolgy available....Like many legacy brands they favor slow, realiable experience over sci fi, rocket science leaps.  Most of what they put out is something that can stay on a photographers bag for years...rather than become obsolete in months.
• Some still see "cropping" as a cheat, and large mega pixel count as the enabliing technology. That is simply a fallacy. Cropping and re-composing in post has been a thing since phtography started. You just have to see the markings on negatives and proof sheets all around the history of great photography.
• FWIW best EVF rangefinder experience I have had is on the leica Q's, where the digital zooom give you framelines for different lenses, whilst still showing the whole view (framelines superimposed)  This allows on a Q3 to have a 35mm 40 mp aprox file, or a 50 at 25...or so. Composition is a breeze, easier than Rangefinder framelines. Focusing in manual or AF easy and fast....And yes, the Q is "meant" to be cropped. It's a one lens 3+ Focus lengths camera. Same for the Q343 with the corresponding 6-, 75, 90 etc framelines.  If this EV1 has a similar viewfinder then it must be really fun to work with. If it doesnt, that's a shame for me.  For my taste, I would love if it if it had the option to show a 28 range of view with framelines, and then the option for those that like it of full screen render TTL for wider or longer ranges. It's software, and it's more than possible.
• I would love to try it. I don't think it will take me away from the M's, the Q's or the SL with M lens coupled. But I do not see it as anything but a great option for some, a good option for many, and somehting to ignore for some. 

Edited Sunday at 03:07 PM by S Maclean
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