Leica M EV1: The first M with EVF instead of Rangefinder

[pgk]

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6 hours ago, rramesh said:

Not sure how Leica does marketing surveys.  But I would be keen to understand:

a) How many existing M users switch to the M-EV1. 
b) How many new customers the M-EV1 is able to attract. 

Maybe the mods could run a survey to capture this. 

I would suggest that an even more useful marketing survey would have been to ask how many M lens users there are who have found using M lenses with adapters on EVF cameras is a viable way of using them and have continued to do so? (I have adapters for Sony and occasionally use them but in all honesty they are so much easier to use with a rangefinder, excluding perhaps the 135).

In a year's time it will be interesting to get real world feedback about how effective users have found the M-EV1 to be in practice.

[elmars]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb SrMi:

I did not say I like his videos  ... "hold that thought" 🤣

He was part of the group of reviewers invited by Leica for the launch. This is a funny video, which shows how such a meeting goes:

 

 

Thank You for the video. It was the best I have seen about the EV1. Most of them are boring this is informative and entertaining. 

[JNK100]

2 hours ago, Mute-on said:

All reviews are subjective, written or otherwise. The only part of any so called review that is objective is that part in which the factual specifications are reported.

I take your point, but these type of videos are clearly designed to flatter due to links with manufacturers. This happens with all camera brands, cars and phones etc.

I would take notice of an Amateur Photographer review but not a YouTube review of this type.

Jono Slack and Sean Reid for example are also credible and as objective as is possible.

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Ne314satel said:

The type of camera you use doesn't really affect the quality of your photos. It's like asking a writers what model of computer or typewriter they used to write their novel. Photo quality has nothing to do with it. It's all about psychology, habits, lifestyle, and so on. Personally, I enjoy using a rangefinder; it has no lag, it instantly captures what I see. And even the capabilities of the M11 are often excessive for me compared to the film M6 or even the digital M9. As for the EV1, I think it's a commercial hack, but that's what everyone's doing these days—minimum innovation, maximum advertising. So Leica just wants to make more money. Without me.

The EV1 was launched primarily due to customer pressure. Kudos to Leica for listening.

[Derbyshire Man]

12 minutes ago, JNK100 said:

I take your point, but these type of videos are clearly designed to flatter due to links with manufacturers. This happens with all camera brands, cars and phones etc.

I would take notice of an Amateur Photographer review but not a YouTube review of this type.

Jono Slack and Sean Reid for example are also credible and as objective as is possible.

Dunno, YouTube wise I've listened to Goughie, Kai and Dave and I thought they were even handed in their approach. Bobby Tonelli felt a bit more gushing but he pointed out drawbacks too. After that I'd had my fill!

[Homo Faber]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Derbyshire Man:

Have you ever considered that Leica may have some employees who’ve thought about it just a bit harder and deeper than a random bloke on a forum with 125 posts? You may not agree with their strategy and road map but the most likely reason for that is you don’t have access to and/or understand the other factors at play.

for the avoidance of doubt, me neither!

It is rather funny when a random bloke on a forum tries to make point by calling another random bloke on a forum a "random bloke on a forum". There lies a certain irony in it, don't you think?

[Homo Faber]

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vor einer Stunde schrieb FrozenInTime:

I think your comparison is not apples for apples...

 

I beg to differ: One apple is focusing with a Leica M lens on a Leica MEV1 and the other apple is focusing with same Leica M lens on a Nikon ZF. Please tell me, why is the latter so much better (more reliable, more intuitive, not to mention the additional autofocus) than the former? 

I think this is quite embarrassing for Leica. They should be the ones proudly saying: "Look, this is how manual focusing with an EVF works in the 21st century. We are Leica, we invented this stuff and we are still the best!"

Edited yesterday at 10:40 AM by Homo Faber

[Derbyshire Man]

15 minutes ago, Homo Faber said:

It is rather funny when a random bloke on a forum tries to make point by calling another random bloke on a forum a "random bloke on a forum". There lies a certain irony in it, don't you think?

There's no irony intended nor present. I was suggesting you showed a lack of insight, humility or introspection. And you continue to do so.

[Homo Faber]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb Derbyshire Man:

There's no irony intended nor present. I was suggesting you showed a lack of insight, humility or introspection. And you continue to do so.

Well, just because you can't recognise irony doesn't mean there isn't any.

Also I would kindly ask you not to get personal. We don't know each other and you know nothing about my insight, my humility or my introspection. Please try to formulate your arguments objectively.

Edited yesterday at 11:10 AM by Homo Faber

[FrozenInTime]

30 minutes ago, Homo Faber said:

I beg to differ: One apple is focusing with a Leica M lens on a Leica MEV1 and the other apple is focusing with same Leica M lens on a Nikon ZF. Please tell me, why is the latter so much better (more reliable, more intuitive, not to mention the additional autofocus) than the former? 

I think this is quite embarrassing for Leica. They should be the ones proudly saying: "Look, this is how manual focusing with an EVF works in the 21st century. We are Leica, we invented this stuff and we are still the best!"

Nikon has sensors better equipped - phase detect pixels, fewer pixels, and faster readouts. Their processors have sufficient power to run subject detection and focus detection algorithms. .

The optical path from the OLED EVF panel is clearly also over-constrained within the M body outline - I think every camera manufacturer struggles here, hence the prevalence of deep EVF humps and the SLR body style, or long protrusions on the likes of the FX2.

I think the Leica engineers knew all this, and wept, but management, influenced by public pressure ( i.e us ), forced them into releasing the best they could do, quickly, based on the current platform.

Leica splitting the EV M range away from the M rangefinder architecture will allow the development of a manual focus camera with more optimised processing, and body that can diverge away from the classic M outline.

Next time with a ground up platform and the right sensor being  available, it will be better.

Edited yesterday at 11:10 AM by FrozenInTime

[maxpower]

15 minutes ago, Homo Faber said:

I beg to differ: One apple is focusing with a Leica M lens on a Leica MEV1 and the other apple is focusing with same Leica M lens on a Nikon ZF. Please tell me, why is the latter so much better (more reliable, more intuitive, not to mention the additional autofocus) than the former? 

I think this is quite embarrassing for Leica. They should be the ones proudly saying: "Look, this is how manual focusing with an EVF works in the 21st century. We are Leica, we invented this stuff and we are still the best!"

In your earlier post you already highlighted the technical and business reasons, you don't think they are valid and that's fine. I don't think it's embarrassing, I think people underestimate the amount of work that goes into both hardware, software and business decisions and especially when comparing to companies that operate at completely different scales. People just had unrealistic expectations, and this camera was always going to be highly controversial. 

For every Leica camera there has always been a "better" option with more functionality at lower cost from a competing brand, this is no different. People still buy Leicas, people will buy this. 

[SrMi]

32 minutes ago, Homo Faber said:

I beg to differ: One apple is focusing with a Leica M lens on a Leica MEV1 and the other apple is focusing with same Leica M lens on a Nikon ZF. Please tell me, why is the latter so much better (more reliable, more intuitive, not to mention the additional autofocus) than the former? 

I have both, and M-EV1 is much more enjoyable.

[pgk]

6 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

I think the Leica engineers knew all this, and wept, but management, influenced by public pressure ( i.e us ), forced them into releasing the best they could do, quickly, based on the current platform.

The risk of course, is that this strategy suggests that Leica are no longer interested in producing cameras which are the 'best' available within their genre, but are bowing to public pressure to produce mediocre offerings. I have stated this risk all along. Leica is repositioning itself in the photographic marketplace by producing the M-EV1 which is anything but a state-or-the-art EVF camera. It is however a luxury camera clearly desired by those who are prepared to pay out a premium price for a camera they want.

[Homo Faber]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb SrMi:

I have both, and M-EV1 is much more enjoyable.

What is more enjoyable with MEV1 in comparison to Zf: focussing with a manual lens in particular or the whole experience?

[SrMi]

Just now, Homo Faber said:

What is more enjoyable with MEV1 in comparison to Zf: focussing with a manual lens in particular or the whole experience?

The whole experience. Zf has better MF aids, but I am OK with M-EV1's method. Much of my photography is shooting slow or static subjects where I am used to focus manually with magnification. While, I wish to have the better in-focus indicators like Nikon or Hasselblad, I do not want PDAF stripes on the M sensor.

[maxpower]

2 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I do not want PDAF stripes on the M sensor.

Not relevant to discussion but this is interesting to read, I was unaware that this is a thing! I would not want to see that either no..

[la1402]

11 minutes ago, maxpower said:

Not relevant to discussion but this is interesting to read, I was unaware that this is a thing! I would not want to see that either no..

It so far has not been an issue on Nikon, why should it be on Leica?

[FrozenInTime]

18 minutes ago, pgk said:

The risk of course, is that this strategy suggests that Leica are no longer interested in producing cameras which are the 'best' available within their genre, but are bowing to public pressure to produce mediocre offerings. I have stated this risk all along. Leica is repositioning itself in the photographic marketplace by producing the M-EV1 which is anything but a state-or-the-art EVF camera. It is however a luxury camera clearly desired by those who are prepared to pay out a premium price for a camera they want.

I sense there has been an internal struggle, and a best in class EVF-M camera will emerge. The next generation M12 platform could also be great, unburdened from the contradictory needs of rangefinder and EVF. 

[SrMi]

16 minutes ago, maxpower said:

Not relevant to discussion but this is interesting to read, I was unaware that this is a thing! I would not want to see that either no..

The stripes are on the sensors but most camera's firmware succeed to hide them in the generated raw files. Except in some extreme lighting situations.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[pgk]

8 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

I sense there has been an internal struggle, and a best in class EVF-M camera will emerge. The next generation M12 platform could also be great, unburdened from the contradictory needs of rangefinder and EVF. 

I am sure that you are right about an internal struggle ('debate'?). I'm still unconvinced that an EVF will ever be fast on a manual focus, handheld, highly portable camera though. The two do not sit well together IMO, but best in a class of one is certainly achievable😀.