Chris W Posted October 19 Share #1 Posted October 19 Advertisement (gone after registration) So far, my M11 images shot at 6400 are quite badly noisy. I presume this is a function of the larger sensor. I've shot at two of the DNG quality settings and both are equally noisy. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 19 Posted October 19 Hi Chris W, Take a look here Noise on the M11. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
kiwidad Posted October 19 Share #2 Posted October 19 1 minute ago, Chris W said: So far, my M11 images shot at 6400 are quite badly noisy. I presume this is a function of the larger sensor. I've shot at two of the DNG quality settings and both are equally noisy. I can’t say I have experienced this. Unless underexposed the noise at 6400 seems pretty good to me. What are you shooting? 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted October 19 Author Share #3 Posted October 19 I'm using auto - 'aperture priority' in a dimly lit room (to test the noise). I'll try and post a couple of examples later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted October 19 Share #4 Posted October 19 48 minutes ago, Chris W said: So far, my M11 images shot at 6400 are quite badly noisy. I presume this is a function of the larger sensor. I've shot at two of the DNG quality settings and both are equally noisy. The noise may appear large when pixel peeping (irrelevant for comparison), but not when looking at the same output size. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minigill Posted October 19 Share #5 Posted October 19 Try using 36MP function, I find it alot cleaner for indoors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted October 19 Share #6 Posted October 19 1 minute ago, Minigill said: Try using 36MP function, I find it alot cleaner for indoors. There is no difference in noise between 18, 36, and 60MP output when compared at the same size. 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted October 19 Author Share #7 Posted October 19 Advertisement (gone after registration) I see equal noise in both 36 and 60. I'm not massively pixel peeping, but zoomed into 100% most of my images are very clean, whereas 6400 test shots are obviously noisy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted October 19 Author Share #8 Posted October 19 Zoomed in 100% F4 160 shutter speed, ISO 6400 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/424855-noise-on-the-m11/?do=findComment&comment=5877989'>More sharing options...
fenykepesz Posted October 19 Share #9 Posted October 19 vor 5 Minuten schrieb Chris W: Zoomed in 100% F4 160 shutter speed, ISO 6400 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! same here, @Chris W i guess it's :: WYSIWYG i was never really impressed, in terms of color noise, with the high-ISO photos - that's true for the former m10d as well as the m11d i use nowadays. now, i have to admit that i never play with denoising and sharpening or any of such post-processing toys. but those could make a difference if desired so. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted October 19 Author Share #10 Posted October 19 Oh yes, I should add, the example is a raw imported to Capture One with zero processing, no exposure boost or shadow repair. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted October 19 Author Share #11 Posted October 19 Actually the SL2-S is only slightly better at 6400. 100% zoom Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/424855-noise-on-the-m11/?do=findComment&comment=5878023'>More sharing options...
lct Posted October 19 Share #12 Posted October 19 Better avoid underexposure at high isos. Here M11 at 6400 iso with no noise reduction. Bit noisy but i prefer that to the smearing effect of noise reduction. YMMV. M11, Summicron 50/2 DR, f/5.6, 6400 iso Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 4 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/424855-noise-on-the-m11/?do=findComment&comment=5878058'>More sharing options...
JNK100 Posted October 19 Share #13 Posted October 19 5 hours ago, Minigill said: Try using 36MP function, I find it alot cleaner for indoors. There is no difference Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derbyshire Man Posted October 19 Share #14 Posted October 19 Surely there will be however with a 60mp image reduced in size? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted October 19 Share #15 Posted October 19 Just now, Derbyshire Man said: Surely there will be however with a 60mp image reduced in size? One should always compare different resolutions at the same size. 36MP and 60MP should be resized to the same resolution before comparing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted October 19 Share #16 Posted October 19 (edited) That is correct. Same size same noise. Never look at pixel level. Its a different question when you look at different sensors. I wonder if the Nikon Z8 sensor is much cleaner. I saw few images from people who did just little post processing and high ISO images were impressive. When you take DxO though then the M11 has a very good sensor related to noise and dynamic range. Edited October 19 by M11 for me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted October 19 Author Share #17 Posted October 19 2 hours ago, lct said: Better avoid underexposure at high isos. It's on the lowside, but the image is untouched, I haven't bumped up the exposure in post or boosted shadows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted October 19 Author Share #18 Posted October 19 50 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said: Surely there will be however with a 60mp image reduced in size? Looking at my 36mp and 60mp images they are identically noisy as far as I can see. I was hoping the 36mp would be cleaner. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted October 19 Share #19 Posted October 19 49 minutes ago, Chris W said: Looking at my 36mp and 60mp images they are identically noisy as far as I can see. I was hoping the 36mp would be cleaner. Many did, but the M11's lower resolutions are not "pixel-binning" (combining the signals from several pixels, to smooth out per-pixel noise). Just a tricky form of downsampling. Main reason I skipped the M11 - it only marginally improved actual noise performance over the M10. A bit cleaner with a higher floor before banding set in - but the actual speckles were about the same.** Bottom line - the base ISO of the M11 series is 64. When you shoot at any ISO above 64, you are underexposing the sensor (less light/weaker signal), and then regaining brightness via amplification of that weaker signal. Set for ISO 6400, you are feeding the sensor about 6.7 stops less light than it would get at an ISO 64-metered exposure. And since each stop is a halving of the light, that amounts to about one 104th (2ˆ6.7 or 103.9) as much light hitting the silicon - and then amplified 104x by the camera to get a final file of "normal" brightness. Sine you are a musician and presumably "audio guy," it is like micing someone's acoustic guitar (or drum) from 10 meters away, instead of 0.2 meters or less (poor signal) - and then AMPLIFYING the mic's output by 104 to get normal volume (shades of Spinal Tap). You get "noise," as every other little sound the mic picks up gets amplified 104x also. There is a reason Leica limits the ISO knob on the M10/M11 to 6400. "Beyond here there be noise-dragons - and this is pretty borderline already!" _____ I do a lot of (coincidentally) music photography in borderline lighting - this was last Friday night at a "DJs" concert" at the Gallery. M10, 90mm F/2.0 (C/V APO-Ultron), ISO 10000 (my personal auto-ISO limit). The DJs wanted to use some cheap low-wattage laser-show device, so they turned down the stage lights even lower than normal, so the lasers would show up. 🤪 The scene: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 200% crops to show the noise - as out of camera, and as I worked it with Camera Raw's noise reduction. As far as I was willing to go - as with Dolby NR (at least the early versions) photo NR can "muffle" some of the clarity of the high frequencies (fine details, in photography-speak). It's a balancing act. ______ ** BTW, it is technically correct that - for same-size prints/viewing - the noisy pixel speckles will be smaller and harder to detect with the M11. But since the expressed use-case for the M11, by many anticipating it here, was "OH BOY! 60 Mpixels! Now I can make BIGGER prints! Or crop more!," I kinda consider "same-sized viewing" to be irrelevant obfuscation for practical use. 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 200% crops to show the noise - as out of camera, and as I worked it with Camera Raw's noise reduction. As far as I was willing to go - as with Dolby NR (at least the early versions) photo NR can "muffle" some of the clarity of the high frequencies (fine details, in photography-speak). It's a balancing act. ______ ** BTW, it is technically correct that - for same-size prints/viewing - the noisy pixel speckles will be smaller and harder to detect with the M11. But since the expressed use-case for the M11, by many anticipating it here, was "OH BOY! 60 Mpixels! Now I can make BIGGER prints! Or crop more!," I kinda consider "same-sized viewing" to be irrelevant obfuscation for practical use. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/424855-noise-on-the-m11/?do=findComment&comment=5878199'>More sharing options...
SrMi Posted October 19 Share #20 Posted October 19 5 minutes ago, adan said: Many did, but the M11's lower resolutions are not "pixel-binning" (combining the signals from several pixels, to smooth out per-pixel noise). Just a tricky form of downsampling. +1, but even pixel binning or larger sensels cannot improve DR. 7 minutes ago, adan said: When you shoot at any ISO above 64, you are underexposing the sensor (less light/weaker signal), and then regaining brightness via amplification of that weaker signal. That is only true if you let the camera set your exposure. If you control the exposure yourself, e.g., A-mode + EC, then you are "underexposing" the sensor only if you set a lower exposure. However, with ISO above 64, the maximum possible exposure is lower than with ISO 64. 10 minutes ago, adan said: Set for ISO 6400, you are feeding the sensor about 6.7 stops less light than it would get at an ISO 64-metered exposure. How much light you feed to the sensor depends on the exposure, not on ISO. Yes, higher ISO means lower maximum exposure, but it does not change by itself the amount of light fed to the sensor unless you relinquish all exposure control to the camera. 14 minutes ago, adan said: ** BTW, it is technically correct that - for same-size prints/viewing - the noisy pixel speckles will be smaller and harder to detect with the M11. But since the expressed use-case for the M11, by many anticipating it here, was "OH BOY! 60 Mpixels! Now I can make BIGGER prints! Or crop more!," I kinda consider "same-sized viewing" to be irrelevant obfuscation for practical use. While you can make prints bigger or crop more, which you cannot with a 24MP camera at all, higher resolution also allows for better noise reduction and transformations (perspective corrections, leveling, SDC). A camera with a high-resolution sensor can do everything that a lower-resolution camera can do, but not vice versa. Comparing at the same resolution is closest to a realistic use comparison, and that is why it has become the only acceptable way to compare DR. P.S.: For the record, I do not have issues shooting with my 20MP cameras instead of a 60MP or 100MP camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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