considering buying M11M and trading in my M10

[LeAlain]

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Dear Friends,

 

I was a new Leica user end of last year, after having worked for more then 30 years as a prof. photographer.

I did buy the M10, after I was a bit disappointed in the shots I made with a borrowed M11M. But after some postproduction and thoughts and experience with the M10, I come to my conclusion:

I need shorter shutter speeds on the M11M, due to the smaller pixels/60MP. so auto-ISO and say 1/500 Shutter priority will do the rest. Anyway I tend to work with wide open lenses, so I should be happy with this new M11M.

(and yes, allways on Mechanical shutter)

Any thoughts from you guys and girls and others?

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[colonel]

If you were disappointed with the M11M then what would change with faster shutter ? I use my M11 with down to 1/30 and get sharp pics mostly. 1/60 definitely

Also @obvious@ but the M11M limits you to monochrome ? 

did you like the M10 ?

 

[Chris W]

You don't say if you are a died in the wool B&W shooter.

I recently owned an M10 and now own an M11, I got nice B&W conversions from both using software. The standard M11 is extremely sharp and detailed.

If you find you are processing everything to B&W over the next few months I guess you could consider buying a Monochrom. Otherwise I prefer the ability to choose and also to use colour to impact the B&W image (orange, red etc).

Edited September 15 by Chris W
Spelling

[LeAlain]

I was only disappointed of my missed shots, I wasn't used to working with an M camera at the time. I was blown away with the imagequeality however.

 

I do love the M10 by the way. I still find it hard to get a consistency in focusing, but I will need to keep working on that.

Just decided to start with auto ISO and 1/500 shutter priotity, so I just have to focus on focusing and some + or _ compensating

 

[LeAlain]

4 minutes ago, Chris W said:

You don't say if you are a died in the wool B&W shooter.

I recently owned an M10 and now own an M11, I got nice B&W conversions from both using software. The standard M11 is extremely sharp and detailed.

If you find you are processing everything to B&W over the next few months I guess you could consider buying a Monochrom. Otherwise I prefer the ability to choose and also to use colour to impact the B&W image (orange, red etc).

Well,  in the days I used to make B&W portraits and exhibit the. I used to do it on P3200 film (Kodak) which I would enlarge up to 80/120 cm. I love the graininess of it, yet sharp.

 

so I hear you would 'advise' the regular M11. I get that. I think I will head over to Amsterdam tomorrow and do some more test shootings, hope they have both of them.

I do remember that however the M11M does beautiful very high iso's, some banding did appear.

Edited September 15 by LeAlain

[T25UFO]

A very happy M11 Mono owner here and I have also owned the M9 and M10 mono variants.  I do regret selling the M9, but that's another story!

I only use 50mm (the reissued Noctilux and the Classic Summilux) and 35mm APO on the M11, and generally don't go below 1/250th.  Rangefinder focusing is fine, the only issue I have is sometimes missing absolutely critical focus on a person's eyes for portraiture when shooting wide open, here is an example, but you have to really zoom in to notice.  I would say go for it 🙂

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[Chris W]

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23 minutes ago, LeAlain said:

so I hear you would 'advise' the regular M11. I get that.

I wouldn't really 'advise'. I've never used any of the Monochroms. They are superb no doubt.

I was just saying I liked the M10 a lot and have been really happy with my new M11, including some B&W conversions.

[LeAlain]

17 minutes ago, Chris W said:

I wouldn't really 'advise'. I've never used any of the Monochroms. They are superb no doubt.

I was just saying I liked the M10 a lot and have been really happy with my new M11, including some B&W conversions.

I understood, no worries. I just like to refresh my thoughts and share them, before I make my decision.

[LeAlain]

Additional:

I very much like my Visoflex (the round one), is there a reason to get the newer square one?

[costa43]

4 hours ago, LeAlain said:

Additional:

I very much like my Visoflex (the round one), is there a reason to get the newer square one?

Yes, If you want to use a Visoflex on an M11 generation camera then it has to be the square one.

[wilfredo]

5 hours ago, T25UFO said:

A very happy M11 Mono owner here and I have also owned the M9 and M10 mono variants.  I do regret selling the M9, but that's another story!

I only use 50mm (the reissued Noctilux and the Classic Summilux) and 35mm APO on the M11, and generally don't go below 1/250th.  Rangefinder focusing is fine, the only issue I have is sometimes missing absolutely critical focus on a person's eyes for portraiture when shooting wide open, here is an example, but you have to really zoom in to notice.  I would say go for it 🙂

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I noticed you didn't nail eye focus immediately. I sold my M9 Monochrome when I purchased a Q2M precisely for its ability to AF fast enough.  My keeper "people" shots increased dramatically.  I'm considering the M11 Monochrom and wondering if using the LCD screen for focusing is helpful at all?  I'm not concerned about being loyal to the  rangefinder experience by using the optical viewfinder exclusively. In the end, capturing the photograph is what's most important to me.   I kept a series of M lenses which I would love to use on the M11 Monochrom but nailing focus remains a concern.   Among other issues I have nerve damage to my left hand and I've lost agility in my fingers.   I received a LFI award for this portrait of a man in Lisbon who loves Flamenco.  

Edited September 15 by wilfredo

[osaf]

5 hours ago, LeAlain said:

I still find it hard to get a consistency in focusing, but I will need to keep working on that.

Just decided to start with auto ISO and 1/500 shutter priotity, so I just have to focus on focusing and some + or _ compensating

It seems you have not yet managed to get the camera under your control. It would not change if you spend a lot of money into a new camera. So my advice: Keep the M10, spend a lot of time and photos in "playing" with settings until you know the cam by heart. For b/w conversion you can create pre-settings for post prod if you like. Personally I would not use auto-functions and would not go for a fixes shutter prio. Just take photos in the good old way as learned in the '80s.  

 

[LeAlain]

Ofcourse, basically you are right, but it is not that different from the 80's. When I used my camera's in A-mode, I decided what the F-stop would be, similar to what I describe above. Since I don't mind having high ISO's I can concentrate on the shot, with + or - I correct what I see, basically the same as when I am in M mode.

When I do my work in the south of Europe for my agencies, almost every outdoor shot is in A-mode. It doesn't mean I stop thinking, I just miss fewer shots exposure wise.

 

On top of that, I get a bit tired of changing my ISO all the time. In fact, when it is important, I can just change it to a fixed value.

Edited September 15 by LeAlain

[T25UFO]

1 hour ago, wilfredo said:

I noticed you didn't nail eye focus immediately. I sold my M9 Monochrome when I purchased a Q2M precisely for its ability to AF fast enough.  My keeper "people" shots increased dramatically.  I'm considering the M11 Monochrom and wondering if using the LCD screen for focusing is helpful at all?  I'm not concerned about being loyal to the  rangefinder experience by using the optical viewfinder exclusively. In the end, capturing the photograph is what's most important to me.   I kept a series of M lenses which I would love to use on the M11 Monochrom but nailing focus remains a concern.   Among other issues I have nerve damage to my left hand and I've lost agility in my fingers.   I received a LFI award for this portrait of a man in Lisbon who loves Flamenco.  

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That's a fabulous photo and well deserved of the award.  

In general photography I don't have a problem with rangefinder focusing, but then it's easier to find something to line up the rangefinder patch.  My problem is only with 'eyes'!  I wouldn't give up my M11 Mono and now often use the SL3 with 90mm for portraits, although not keen on the weight and handling.

A Q2 Mono with 28mm lens probably wouldn't work for my type of portraits, but if Leica released a Q3 43 Mono then I would buy that.  However, there seems to be an ongoing debate as to whether a Mono camera is possible with the Q3 focusing system.  Who knows?

[jakontil]

5 hours ago, LeAlain said:

Ofcourse, basically you are right, but it is not that different from the 80's. When I used my camera's in A-mode, I decided what the F-stop would be, similar to what I describe above. Since I don't mind having high ISO's I can concentrate on the shot, with + or - I correct what I see, basically the same as when I am in M mode.

When I do my work in the south of Europe for my agencies, almost every outdoor shot is in A-mode. It doesn't mean I stop thinking, I just miss fewer shots exposure wise.

 

On top of that, I get a bit tired of changing my ISO all the time. In fact, when it is important, I can just change it to a fixed value.

Dont worry bout missing the focus, it will only get better by time and you will enjoy the process while it feels more rewarding.. i always treat my m11 like film M with fixed iso

[Steve Ash]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb wilfredo:

I noticed you didn't nail eye focus immediately. I sold my M9 Monochrome when I purchased a Q2M precisely for its ability to AF fast enough.  My keeper "people" shots increased dramatically.  I'm considering the M11 Monochrom and wondering if using the LCD screen for focusing is helpful at all?  I'm not concerned about being loyal to the  rangefinder experience by using the optical viewfinder exclusively. In the end, capturing the photograph is what's most important to me.   I kept a series of M lenses which I would love to use on the M11 Monochrom but nailing focus remains a concern.   Among other issues I have nerve damage to my left hand and I've lost agility in my fingers.   I received a LFI award for this portrait of a man in Lisbon who loves Flamenco.  

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Wilfredo, I very much like this shot. Looking at the DoF I suppose this shot was taken at about f4-f5.6, or lets better guess it was not shot at f1.7.  Thus it should be very easy possible to get this shot with the M11M aswell.

Regards,

Steve

[Chris W]

I'm not a fan of portraits shot with very shallow depth of field. In a well composed shot I still find the separation too harsh, why not see some of the background? In less well composed shots I hate to see an eye in focus, but the nose and/or ear out of focus.

[Derbyshire Man]

40 minutes ago, Chris W said:

I'm not a fan of portraits shot with very shallow depth of field. In a well composed shot I still find the separation too harsh, why not see some of the background? In less well composed shots I hate to see an eye in focus, but the nose and/or ear out of focus.

I prefer to see enough of the background to understand the context, sometimes with a degree of blurring, sometimes not, depending what is going to work best. My days of liking a 85mm 1.2 shot are mostly over but even then, there is still occasionally a place for it. Never say never but choose wisely!

Then again, I’ve become an environmental portrait fan with a thing for 21mm!

Edited September 16 by Derbyshire Man

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[wilfredo]

I appreciate the responses to my comment.  I treasure the M legacy.  I’ve enjoyed owning the M2, M6, MP, M7, M8, and M9 Monochrom over the course of the last 20 years.   Recently I picked up a used M8 because I missed the particular rendering that camera offers.  The M8 offers very organic files I call the sweet spot between analog and digital.  With the loss of agility on my left hand due to nerve damage I gravitate towards AF cameras these days hence the Q2M.  For Color work (I’m not a pro) I mostly use a Sony A7RIII.  I just ordered a Sony A7RV, but truth be told, it may be a stepping stone towards the Leica M11 Monochrom. The new Sony camera will give me a good feel for what a 60.1 megapixel camera can produce and  I can use my M lenses on it.  I’m passionate about B&W photography hence the M11 Monochrom is calling me.  About 90% of my photography is B&W.  I will have to make a trip to the Leica store in Porto (I live in Lisbon) to check it out.  It’s a three hour ride.  I have no doubt that I will absolutely love what the M11 Monochrom will produce, based on my experience with the Q2M, if I make the move. Here’s one of my street shots with the Q2M.    
Cheers! 

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[Derbyshire Man]

I'd suggest for that mix a good way to go would be Q3 for colour and AF needs and a M11M. I sometimes take that combo out.

Personally it depends on the mission at hand. Although I'm 95%+ B&W for travel I'm more likely to use a colour M body to allow flexibility unless I am expecting low light conditions in which case the M11M has to be in the bag. In most lighting situations though a conversion is to all intents and purposes indistinguishable from M11M output and also allows more ability to rescue blown out highlights.

I'm over camera'd currently but I'd be hard pushed to know which one I'd get rid of, M11P, M11D and M11M all pull something different out of me, the Q3 at the moment is always in the bag because the combo of the body's functions, 28mm 1.7 and relative weight is more appealing that the 28 summilux on an M but I'm more of a 21 and 24 fan so sometimes question my choice. Although theoretically AF should increase keeper rate I find it makes me snatch at photographs a little rather than interacting properly and getting a better shot. Still, that's a photographer problem not a camera issue!