6-bit coding and Auto Lens Detection

[lct]

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1 minute ago, UliWer said:

Yes, you may call everything which is smaller than the whole view of the image captured by the sensor a „frameline“. You may also compare this your meaning of „framelines“ to the usual meaning of framelines when you use an M camera. It‘s up to you to decide whether this wording makes sense. I am sure I won‘t follow your nomenclature.  And certainly it is not „the truth“.

I don't know how to call a frameline otherwise. There is a frame. There is a line around it. So it is a frameline obviously, at least to me.

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[jaapv]

I think you don't follow at all... Your ideas are completely impossible technically.

[lct]

Just now, jaapv said:

I think you don't follow at all... Your ideas are completely impossible technically.

You don't get it at all sorry. As i said above, try it and you will see the truth.

[lct]

Too bad i have no smartphone at hand, i would show you what i see. BTW you don't need to have an EVF for that. You can see the same on the LCD.

[UliWer]

There is a difference between stubbornness and truth.

[lct]

2 minutes ago, UliWer said:

There is a difference between stubbornness and truth.

This is becoming embarrassing dear colleague. I prefer letting you at that.

[jaapv]

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A frame is not a frameline. Confusing the two leads to chaos.

A frame is the edge of a photograph, determined by the angle of view of the lens and the size of the sensor.
A frameline is an indication of the edge of a photograph, projected (digitally or mechanically)  on a larger image in a viewfinder. 

As an EVF is WYSIWYG, the viewfinder image shows the full frame as produced by the lens/sensor. It may show (virtual) framelines, which are a virtual indication of the frame of lenses  with a more narrow angle of view which are not actually on the camera, but never of lenses with a wider angle of view, as there is nothing to show for that angle of view outside the frame of the mounted lens/sensor/EVF.

An optical viewfinder can have a wider angle of view than the lens mounted, in that case it can show a (mechanical) frameline outside the actual image frame which will be indicated by its native (mechanical) frameline. The wide angle of view of the optical viewfinder allows you to see outside the frame that you are actually recording, unlike an EVF.

Given that an EVF cannot produce any image outside the angle of view of the lens/sensor, which is its frame (disregarding generative AI 😜) it can only produce virtual framelines for lenses with a more narrow angle of view AKA crop.  

Perspective control is nothing more than a digitally skewed frameline, cropping and distorting the image which can only exist within the frame of the EVF, see above.. 

Actually I use perspective control quite regularly. It is not specific to the M11/Visoflex. Take a good look. The corners will never be cut off in the EVF, which shows that you are cropping within the frame.

And yes, you can use the LCD. But even that will not project an image over the buttons of the camera. 

 

[jaapv]

40 minutes ago, lct said:

You don't get it at all sorry. As i said above, try it and you will see the truth.

Wolkenkuckucksland, to stay in Leica terms. 

[lct]

OK no smartphone at hand but my little Pana Lx100 can do it.
A frame, a line around it, and you can see outside of it.
Digital zoom of the M11.
Leica perspective control shows the same sort of framelines except that they adjust the perspective as the name sugests.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

[jaapv]

No-no. you are cropping here. You are not looking outside the frame, but outside a cropped frameline.  (1.8 times to be precise) Show me a frameline outside the frame of this image, which is the edge of the LCD. Nice proof of my posts, BTW.

[lct]

The frame, the line of which you can see above, is that of the photo as it shows out the camera. Same for perspective control. So you can see outside of the frame when shooting as i said previously. Clear enough i hope as i'm running out of words 😅

 

Edited Friday at 08:14 PM by lct

[jaapv]

 Because the camera cropped - as indicated by the frameLINE and 1.8x marking.  Quite likely you can recover the rest from the DNG. Probably a carry-over from the Q.

[lct]

Well i enjoy discussing with you but all good things must come to an end. I did my best to make me understood but i'm late for dinner. See you later 😎

[jaapv]

Enjoy! 

[jdlaing]

That’s a crop line. Not a frameline.

[lct]

Framelines are visual guide lines seen not only in optical VFs but also EVFs. In RED cameras, for instance, or the Leica Q3, let alone the Visoflex 2.

[jaapv]

<Sigh> I give up. 😇

[IkarusJohn]

On 10/3/2025 at 1:34 PM, jaapv said:

However the effect on other lenses is variable. In some cases the lens gets classed as not recognized when the six bit code gets contradicted by the frameline position, in some cases there is no interaction and in a few cases is a partial override . The rationale behind this behaviour is

Could this simply be because there is only limited 6 bit code duplication at this stage?  As @UliWer suggests above, the camera reads the 6 bit code to identify the lens for the EXIF data, and mechanically sets the frame lines.  Now, if the electronics in the camera couple the two pieces of information together, then there are two further alternatives for the same coding (there being three sets of framelines). The experiments so far seem consistent with this - some lens identification changes with the movement of the frame line selector.  The “uncoded” combinations will just mean that code has not been used yet with those frame lines.

It all falls apart with an EVF camera, M or SL, as the camera will have no way of telling which lens with the same code has been mounted (I see no reason for the anticipated M-EV1 to have either the roller cam in the lens mount or for frame lines).  Presumably, in such a case, you’ll have to select which lens you’re using (depending how often Leica has duplicated 6 bit codes).  To expand, there’s no need for frame lines as the EVF will show the field of view from the lens and no more.  The camera will have no way of telling two lenses with the same code apart (unless the M-EV1 retains the roller for this purpose).

This could get messy.

(apologies if this has already been covered)

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[lct]

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Edited Saturday at 01:48 AM by lct

[lct]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Framelines are visual guide lines seen not only in optical VFs but also EVFs. In RED cameras, for instance, or the Leica Q3, let alone the Visoflex 2.

Also ARRI or Sigma cameras such as my FPL body. Cropping can be a purpose of those framelines but also perspective control i was referring to previously. In both cases, photogs can see outside of the framelines and i expect the EVF M to allow for the same facility. Just for info.

Edited Saturday at 02:15 AM by lct