6-bit coding and Auto Lens Detection

[jaapv]

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I already said quite a few posts before that Leica seems to have become sloppy with the M11. It is in any case not possible to use the frame position as extra bit with this mishmash of behaviour. 

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[jaapv]

Correction: M9 is inconsistent as well: Summilux 24: Focal length disappears. Summilux 50  Focal length remains. 

[jdlaing]

23 hours ago, lct said:

Frameline selection is purely mechanical, including on the MATE, there is no doubt about that. Now, the problem is not frameline selection but lens detection. Does lens detection depend on the  selected frameline, and if yes, how does it work?

No

[lct]

Could well be my conclusion too.

[jaapv]

Summary: frameline position is completely mechanical, but the camera can detect it electronically and uses the information digitally. Lens detection is by 6-bit code and optical-digital. The signal from the frameline sensors is undoubtedly coordinating with the six-bit code because of the three position lug of the MATE.  
However the effect on other lenses is variable. In some cases the lens gets classed as not recognized when the six bit code gets contradicted by the frameline position, in some cases there is no interaction and in a few cases is a partial override . The rationale behind this behaviour is unclear. 

[jdlaing]

20 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Summary: frameline position is completely mechanical, but the camera can detect it electronically and uses the information digitally. Lens detection is by 6-bit code and optical-digital. The signal from the frameline sensors is undoubtedly coordinating with the six-bit code because of the three position lug of the WATE.  
However the effect on other lenses is variable. In some cases the lens gets classed as not recognized when the six bit code gets overridden, in some cases there is no interaction and in a few cases is a partial override . The rationale behind this behaviour is unclear. 

WATE? Framelines?

[jaapv]

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Thanks  MATE. Corrected. 

[lct]

8 hours ago, jaapv said:

Summary: frameline position is completely mechanical, but the camera can detect it electronically and uses the information digitally. Lens detection is by 6-bit code and optical-digital. The signal from the frameline sensors is undoubtedly coordinating with the six-bit code because of the three position lug of the MATE.  
However the effect on other lenses is variable. In some cases the lens gets classed as not recognized when the six bit code gets contradicted by the frameline position, in some cases there is no interaction and in a few cases is a partial override . The rationale behind this behaviour is unclear. 

Or there is no rationale at all. Experiments seem to show that when the six bit code gets contradicted by the frameline position, the framelines are only randomly the winner. Hard to conclude that auto lens detection depends on the framelines then.

[jaapv]

Nobody said that. It is interdependent but not always. Random? Maybe only to the casual observer   Only Leica knows the algorithms and reasoning. At any rate your beloved EVF M will very likely have no frameline detection by lack of framelines; the camera will work the same as the adapted L mount. Maybe, just maybe, Leica will cook up some kind of frameline simulation but only for crops. 

[lct]

6 hours ago, jaapv said:

Nobody said that. It is interdependent but not always. Random? Maybe only to the casual observer   Only Leica knows the algorithms and reasoning. At any rate your beloved EVF M will very likely have no frameline detection by lack of framelines; the camera will work the same as the adapted L mount. Maybe, just maybe, Leica will cook up some kind of frameline simulation but only for crops. 

Electronic framelines already exist in the M11 and not only for crops. Be they electronic or otherwise, i fail to see how and why framelines can have whatever effect on lens detection as far as coded lenses are concerned. Only reason i can imagine is related to the MATE but i have no experience of it since my copy is uncoded.

[jdlaing]

42 minutes ago, lct said:

Electronic framelines already exist in the M11 and not only for crops. Be they electronic or otherwise, i fail to see how and why framelines can have whatever effect on lens detection as far as coded lenses are concerned. Only reason i can imagine is related to the MATE but i have no experience of it since my copy is uncoded.

Framelines are not electronic. The only thing electronic is the LED lighting that illuminates the same frameline masks. Mechanical.

[lct]

38 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

Framelines are not electronic. The only thing electronic is the LED lighting that illuminates the same frameline masks. Mechanical.

Nothing mechanical in Leica perspective control. Makes nice framelines that are purely electronic and allow you to see outside the frame if you like that. Same for "digital zoom" on the M11.

Edited Friday at 06:15 PM by lct

[jaapv]

On an EVF the camera cannot see outside the frame, so only cropping tramlines are possible... 

[lct]

1 minute ago, jaapv said:

On an EVF the camera cannot see outside the frame, so only cropping tramlines are possible... 

You may wish to try the Leica perspective control function of the M11. It does not exist on your M9 i guess. Neither does it on my M240. On the M10 i don't know.

[jaapv]

There is no image outside the viewfinder on an EVF, so no tramlines outside (or perspective control for that matter) 

[jaapv]

5 minutes ago, lct said:

You may wish to try the Leica perspective control function of the M11. It does not exist on your M9 i guess. Neither does it on my M240. On the M10 i don't know.

You must have the M11 MW - Magic Wand. It produces pixels outside the sensor.

[lct]

7 minutes ago, jaapv said:

There is no image outside the viewfinder on an EVF, so no tramlines outside (or perspective control for that matter) 

Framelines are always inside viewfinders by definition. So framelines of perspective control, as well as framelines of digital zoom, are inside the EVF of the M11. This way you can see outside of them, nothing complicated to understand.

Edited Friday at 06:35 PM by lct

[lct]

18 minutes ago, jaapv said:

You must have the M11 MW - Magic Wand. It produces pixels outside the sensor.

All i can say is try it and you will see the truth 🤷‍♂️

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[jaapv]

The EVF shows exactly what the sensor provides which is the field of view of the lens AKA the frame. There is nothing outside the frame that you can see No image , no framelines, no perspective control. Only an optical viewfinder can see outside the field of view of the lens. I don’t know what you think you see. If you see framelines in the Visoflex they must be a crop. Vision outside the frame is available in the optical viewfinder. 

[UliWer]

21 minutes ago, lct said:

So framelines of perspective control, as well as framelines of digital zoom, are inside the EVF of the M11.

Yes, you may call everything which is smaller than the whole view of the image captured by the sensor a „frameline“. You may also compare this your meaning of „framelines“ to the usual meaning of framelines when you use an M camera. It‘s up to you to decide whether this wording makes sense. I am sure I won‘t follow your nomenclature.  And certainly it is not „the truth“.