Is this crazy? Selling my M11 monochrome and going back to Leica Monochrome typ 246

[Jeff S]

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On 9/2/2025 at 2:35 PM, wolan said:

Hi

my first bw camera was the Leica Monochrome 246. This camera was a revelation for me. The SOOC files ware simply stunning, and I had to do nothing or maybe just add a bit of vignetting, which I like. Other than that every thing was perfect, contrast, tonal range, sharpness, deep blacks etc.

The camera has however a lot of limitations, the minimal ISO is rather high for example and makes it challenging to shoot WO, which I do very oft. So I decided to upgrade to a M11monochrom. Fantastic camera, but the files look a bit flat and I find myself very oft working in post to get to a result which I like.

Another serious problem with the M11m is the lack of sensor stabilization. It forces to use a minimum shutter speed of 4f. When I shoot with a red filter or in a dark environment with a moderate tele lens or do macro work then ISO goes up like crazy.

So I think I'll sell the M11m and will go back to the M 246.

What do you think? Do you see any cons in much such an old camera now (Leica is selling this model for around 3000$ with a year guarantee)?

For me, the M10M provides the best blend of modern tech and traditional M experience.  My M(9)M mostly sits idle as a result. But either camera is capable of superb, or mediocre, results, solely dependent on me.

Regarding flat files, one can change the default import tone curve in LR, for instance, and once set, create a different starting point without even an additional click. Ironically, complaints about flat files from the M10M from inexperienced forum users eventually prompted Leica and Adobe to change the default import tone curve to create more contrast.  The camera didn’t change, the PP software did.  And the user can change it back in seconds if desired.  Simple stuff.

Blur when using higher MP cameras has been discussed ad nauseam here.  The bottom line is that this is an issue of magnification, not resolution.  Blur is unchanged at equal magnification, either on screen or based on print size. If one enjoys the increased magnification potential arising due to greater sensor resolution, then of course one must adjust shooting methods accordingly.

Nothing surprising here.  As far as whether one should use camera x or camera y, forum surveys seem meaningless to me; all a personal matter, but hopefully with full understanding of these basics by the user.

 

 

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[charlesphoto99]

22 hours ago, Smudgerer said:

Hello pgh, good to hear that you think highly of the Mamiya 6, never used one as of yet but it's on it's way to me as I type this. I love the SWC/M though, use it mainly in 645 mode. I've a Rollei 3.5 too but I have always found them awkward to use. I process all 35/120 B&W at a small darkroom set-up I have here at home, scan with either a Plustek 8200i / Nikon Coolscan ED for 35 and a Plustek 120 Opticfilm for the MF negatives. I tried camera scanning but hated it.......Print to one of three Epsons, SCP800, SCP 3800 & SCP 6000.

With you too regarding the M10-D, I have mentioned here many times that I loved that camera, ( apart from the stupid rear on / off / E-compensation switch ), but my copy was uniquely plagued with troubles and I eventually switched up to the 11-D because I do really love the form of the Leica D's..........I wish they had made a 11-DM because 90% of what I do is in B&W, if they did I would have just one digital M right now.

I had a pair of Mamiya 6's for years (and a 7 eventually). Great cameras (a blown up Leica essentially). I will say, I hope you have a repair person all lined up... (the wind on's are notorious for breaking). The one camera I truly regret selling was my SWC....

[pedaes]

8 hours ago, 250swb said:

the increase in megapixels has also required the increase in the range of the image stabilisation

Of course those cameras are designed to take lenses up to 800mm, whereas most M images are taken at 50mm and 'wider'.

[pgh]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Groan. Post is such a huge part of the process, one either needs to learn to enjoy (or tolerate) it or pay somebody else to do it.

I had a friend and pro peer piss me off a few years ago over this. He needed a file readied to make a large print to help promote his photo book on India, and I did him a favor by spending a morning going around and around in LR and PS with my limited skills until we got it good enough for him. David, I said, as he was leaving, you really need to figure this stuff out for yourself, it's pretty basic what we did. Oh, I hate doing it and never want to, he said. So I do??? For somebody else's art?? was my retort. Never again I said (and he didn't offer me anything, not even lunch). 

Nobody truly does, but it's part of the process esp if you want to be cheap and not pay somebody else to do it. At the end of the day, what one does in post is an extension of one's vision of how one expected the finished image to look upon taking it. It doesn't matter if the image was taken with a Holga or a $50k Phase One. Of course, modern cameras get us closer, but the sensor baseline will always be somebody else's vision (i.e. the camera mfg) and not your own. 

I don't think there's a one size fits all approach here. 

I "tolerate" working in post in some ways, I hate it in others. I make sure my work rarely, if ever, requires the sort of post work I hate (I wouldn't get hired for it) - but saying post is a huge part of the process really just depends on how you do your work. I take care of all my own post, yes, but I also work with tools that make it tolerable or enjoyable enough for me. Post work that I hate, I'm not gonna do unless I'm being paid stupid money for it. I'd rather mow the lawn or dig a ditch. It's not part of my wheelhouse and I've got no problem saying so. Also, being cheap isn't necessarily my modus operandi - really depends on client and project. I'd only take on something that needed me to be particularly cheap if I felt a genuine curiosity or interest in the subject. Otherwise I'll spend time with my son. Life's too short for bs. 

Your friend should have appreciated your service though. It's fine he doesn't want to do it. It's not okay he didn't appreciate others helping him - that's the issue to me. More than one way to skin a cat, as they say. 

[pgh]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I had a pair of Mamiya 6's for years (and a 7 eventually). Great cameras (a blown up Leica essentially). I will say, I hope you have a repair person all lined up... (the wind on's are notorious for breaking). The one camera I truly regret selling was my SWC....

PCW in Texas is who you want. Fixed my winder back in the day! Still going, training apprentices I believe ... I hope. 

[Olaf_ZG]

I went back from m10m to m9m, so your steps seems logical to me.

[Smudgerer]

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2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I had a pair of Mamiya 6's for years (and a 7 eventually). Great cameras (a blown up Leica essentially). I will say, I hope you have a repair person all lined up... (the wind on's are notorious for breaking). The one camera I truly regret selling was my SWC....

Interesting, thank you. In fact the 6 just arrived today and my first impressions are very favourable, I feel that it's going to be an interesting addition to my choices here.

About the wind-on, yes I read that before going for the camera, but I have a solid one year warranty on it so I am not yet too concerned.

The SWC/M .........I've had several of these on and off for decades, always regret selling them when I do so, but they are the "dog's........." and hopefully I'll have the sense to hang onto this one now.

Great cameras with a unique look

 

 

Edited September 5 by Smudgerer

[250swb]

4 hours ago, pedaes said:

Of course those cameras are designed to take lenses up to 800mm, whereas most M images are taken at 50mm and 'wider'.

So you are saying the problem with the high megapixel mode blurring M11 isn't to do with camera movement? Moving the camera is a thing, but the inability to see it clearly has been disguised prior to high megapixel cameras. Hence the 'I can hand hold at 1/8th' brag, no they can't, but the blur is disguised by the medium used.

Edited September 5 by 250swb

[pedaes]

3 minutes ago, 250swb said:

So you are saying the problem with the high megapixel mode blurring M11 isn't to do with camera movement?

No, I am saying it is likely to be more prevalent with tele-photo lens.

And tele-photo lens are not a M thing. No more from me, I am not that interested in the debate!

[250swb]

4 minutes ago, pedaes said:

No, I am saying it is likely to be more prevalent with tele-photo lens.

And tele-photo lens are not a M thing. No more from me, I am not that interested in the debate!

I see what you mean, but Leica M11 users are complaining about movement blur with the lenses they are using, not lenses exclusively at the long end of the scale, but yes those would exhibit more blur. But nobody buys a Leica M11 to do hand held bird photography do they, maybe, is there somebody??

[charlesphoto99]

21 hours ago, pgh said:

I don't think there's a one size fits all approach here. 

I "tolerate" working in post in some ways, I hate it in others. I make sure my work rarely, if ever, requires the sort of post work I hate (I wouldn't get hired for it) - but saying post is a huge part of the process really just depends on how you do your work. I take care of all my own post, yes, but I also work with tools that make it tolerable or enjoyable enough for me. Post work that I hate, I'm not gonna do unless I'm being paid stupid money for it. I'd rather mow the lawn or dig a ditch. It's not part of my wheelhouse and I've got no problem saying so. Also, being cheap isn't necessarily my modus operandi - really depends on client and project. I'd only take on something that needed me to be particularly cheap if I felt a genuine curiosity or interest in the subject. Otherwise I'll spend time with my son. Life's too short for bs. 

Your friend should have appreciated your service though. It's fine he doesn't want to do it. It's not okay he didn't appreciate others helping him - that's the issue to me. More than one way to skin a cat, as they say. 

I totally get it. It's why big pros have digital techs, and many amateurs prefer in-camera built jpegs. I did have another peer recently have me scan (with my D850 permanent scanning set up) a 120 neg for her and prep it for a 44X66 inch print she was selling. She gave me a $150 gift card to a restaurant up the street. The lab scans she was getting had strange artifacts on them (I think they were using up-res software but didn't know how). Some things are just best done in-house, if possible, ime. 

My point is, if one wants to present their best work, or get something usable out of tricky lighting, then it behooves them to at least understand how to use basic masking and tone curves etc in LR/C1/PS. In general, my color M8/M9/M10/M10-R need very little post, except perhaps some small amount of conrast and density correction. The M8/9 esp, pretty much what you shot is what you get (and those cameras made me much less lazy about digital exposure). The Monochrom's files on the other hand, can really be pushed and pulled around, and are great for bad light situations (like the mid-day rodeo I shot last weekend). But they do need a lot of work ime, almost as much as my scans of old b&w film. That's both the pro and con of getting the flattest file one can from the get go, and why, unfortunately, one see so many 'dull' looking Monochrom pics from those who don't touch them after the fact. 

[AceVentura1986]

Yes. If you really feel the need to downgrade, then get the M10M — aside from video, it’s much better than the M246. 

[Chris W]

I can't talk as a technician, just as a user. I shot my Hasselblad X1D2 (50mpx) handheld, as a travel/street photographer. I experienced a lot of low light on my travels, and as such I was often pushing the limits of shallower f stops and slower shutter speeds. I had blurry images for sure, but often they were sharp.

Switching to the (60mpx) M11 recently I was seeing more out of focus or blurry images. That did surprise me. It's a small body with usually short M mount lenses. I tend to use the very small 35mm f2 summicron. I used the same exact lens on my film M6 in the early 90's and enjoyed plenty of sharp images in low light.

I think it's perfectly possible to shoot hand held on a small body 60 mpx camera with 28, 35 and 50mm lenses.

I've never used a Mamiya 6, but owned a Mamiya 7. I'd have one again except for the premium 'hipster' price tag. The images from the camera are stunning. It's also fun to use.

As to workflow, there is nothing more arduous than shooting film. It takes me a minute at most to post process a digital image in Capture One.

Processing film stock takes time, money, not very nice chemicals. Then there is the painful task of scanning (if you don't make darkroom prints), cleaning the scans of dust, scratches, finger prints etc. Film seems like the ultimate time consuming workflow compared to digital.

[fotografr]

On 9/5/2025 at 9:58 AM, Jeff S said:

For me, the M10M provides the best blend of modern tech and traditional M experience.  My M(9)M mostly sits idle as a result. But either camera is capable of superb, or mediocre, results, solely dependent on me.

Regarding flat files, one can change the default import tone curve in LR, for instance, and once set, create a different starting point without even an additional click. Ironically, complaints about flat files from the M10M from inexperienced forum users eventually prompted Leica and Adobe to change the default import tone curve to create more contrast.  The camera didn’t change, the PP software did.  And the user can change it back in seconds if desired.  Simple stuff.

Blur when using higher MP cameras has been discussed ad nauseam here.  The bottom line is that this is an issue of magnification, not resolution.  Blur is unchanged at equal magnification, either on screen or based on print size. If one enjoys the increased magnification potential arising due to greater sensor resolution, then of course one must adjust shooting methods accordingly.

Nothing surprising here.  As far as whether one should use camera x or camera y, forum surveys seem meaningless to me; all a personal matter, but hopefully with full understanding of these basics by the user.

 

 

I completely concur with this. I was going to suggest the OP consider the M10M as an option, rather than going all the say back to the M246. The M10M, in my opinion, has the optimal file size and the additional benefits of an ultra quiet shutter, very sensible menu and much thinner body than the M246. The files are stunning.