Leica SL3 vs Hasselblad X2D II price, reasonability and real use

[CptSlevin]

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So, we entered a new era where Hasselblad MF X2D II priced almost the same as SL3
APO Lenses cost the same as brand new XCD lenses, on paper SL3 beats X2D II in only one aspect, it has video.
But SL3 and SL3-S are undercooked, lack critical features, have lags and worse EVF performance than SL2/SL2S line.

Are we at that stage when upgrading SL line is like dropping money to the wind? it doesn't hold its' value, updates are low at best, at worst Leica HQ is now only interested in quick cash'n'grab series like Q and iconic M.

It's a shame, but looks like Hasselblad now is a better proposition than SL line

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Edited August 29 by CptSlevin

[ynp]

Indeed, it’s a tempting offer. At last the x2D has a joystick and reportedly it has a better AF than a previous model or my Leica S3. 

I am on a vacation with some health problems and have a lot of time. I downloaded some of my pictures from my online archive and noticed how many of my attempts to shoot people in uncontrolled environments lack critical focus. I am talking about my work with my CL and SL original. No problem with my M10r. Now I want a reliable eye focus mode and the new Hasselblad with two lenses looks interesting. 

[BWColor]

The SL line of cameras never were a leading brand except that they had a fine line of L-Mount lenses and ‘M’ lenses were easily adapted.  The X2Dii and the relatively, for the format, small/light lenses are a positive when it comes down to the SL.  Leica is minimizing lens size and maximizing close focusing capability.  I suspect that the SL-4 will be slightly lighter/smaller and autofocus capability greatly improved.  For me, I’m ‘M’, Sony and X2Dii.

[Smogg]

With the speed at which the Hasselblad XCD series is improving, I think that not only Leica, but also other manufacturers will start to think more and look for other niches where there is no such strong competitor. The X2D II now clearly looks like a Rolls-Royce among ordinary cars. I can’t know for sure, but I believe that the SL series has never been a financial locomotive for Leica, so it can easily abandon this line and focus on what brings profit, namely, the Q series and its flagship - the M series. The most dangerous thing for Leica in the future is if Hasselblad also releases a compact camera. I really want Leica to survive in the era of fierce competition. But for us, users, such competition is good (the price of the new Hasselblad is a pleasant surprise).

[Smogg]

11 minutes ago, BWColor said:

 I’m ‘M’, Sony and X2Dii.

I’m ‘M’(forever), RX1R III (EDC and family camera), GFX100RF (travel), X2D II.

[Dazzajl]

I have been waiting for this to happen. A true DJI camera and I suspect it’s not going to disappoint. Beautiful as the XD series has always been, there has been little to tempt this commercial snapper at least away from the more rounded and rugged Fuji system. This could be the turning point between the two brands. 
 

Whether or not is has a large impact on the SL is another matter. They might be getting closer but 35mm and MF are still quite different beasts. 

[Smogg]

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The SL still has its strengths compared to the X2D II: IP rating and 100+ focal lengths.

For some, semi-compatibility with M lenses is also important.

[BernardC]

They are both very good cameras, you can choose whichever one you like best.

Hasselblad's new line of economical/compact lenses (it's all relative!) is interesting, but they won't give you the same punch wide-open as Leica's APO-Summicron lenses. However, it's close enough once you get to f:8.0 or f:11.

There's a real embarrassment of riches when you are shopping at this price point. You can add Canon, Fuji, Nikon, and Sony to your shopping list, they all price their premium range at around the same level. They also release new models every few months (as a group), which must be hell for those who are unsure of their choice.

My advice: try them out, see which one works best for you, edit and print the files if you can. One of them will probably stand-out. Once you've made a choice, stick with it for a year or more. There's no point "upgrading" if you aren't yet maximizing what you have.

[Smogg]

10 minutes ago, BernardC said:

They are both very good cameras, you can choose whichever one you like best.

Hasselblad's new line of economical/compact lenses (it's all relative!) is interesting, but they won't give you the same punch wide-open as Leica's APO-Summicron lenses. However, it's close enough once you get to f:8.0 or f:11.

There's a real embarrassment of riches when you are shopping at this price point. You can add Canon, Fuji, Nikon, and Sony to your shopping list, they all price their premium range at around the same level. They also release new models every few months (as a group), which must be hell for those who are unsure of their choice.

My advice: try them out, see which one works best for you, edit and print the files if you can. One of them will probably stand-out. Once you've made a choice, stick with it for a year or more. There's no point "upgrading" if you aren't yet maximizing what you have.

This is very subjective. For me, for example, the punch is more the color that the Hasselblad gives right away, without any deep manipulations in post-processing. The savings in post-processing time are simply unreal. Leica APO are great lenses, but in my opinion they do not cover the difference in sensor size and color. In addition, they are monstrously heavy.

[BWColor]

20 minutes ago, Smogg said:

The SL still has its strengths compared to the X2D II: IP rating and 100+ focal lengths.

For some, semi-compatibility with M lenses is also important.

I wish that Hasselblad would provide an IP rating and this is a big deal for those of us that shoot in less than ideal conditions.  … A bit plus for the SL…

[Smogg]

7 minutes ago, BWColor said:

I wish that Hasselblad would provide an IP rating and this is a big deal for those of us that shoot in less than ideal conditions.  … A bit plus for the SL…

Getting an IP rating is difficult and not always necessary for good sales. I'm not sure Hasselblad will want to do this before they release long focal length lenses for Safari.
I still don't think Leica will give up without a fight and will definitely release something grand, for example a new line of compact APO lenses and a compact L-mount camera (SL-C).

[ravinj]

When was Leica ever a "value for money" proposition? 

[ravinj]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

They are both very good cameras, you can choose whichever one you like best.

Hasselblad's new line of economical/compact lenses (it's all relative!) is interesting, but they won't give you the same punch wide-open as Leica's APO-Summicron lenses. However, it's close enough once you get to f:8.0 or f:11.

There's a real embarrassment of riches when you are shopping at this price point. You can add Canon, Fuji, Nikon, and Sony to your shopping list, they all price their premium range at around the same level. They also release new models every few months (as a group), which must be hell for those who are unsure of their choice.

My advice: try them out, see which one works best for you, edit and print the files if you can. One of them will probably stand-out. Once you've made a choice, stick with it for a year or more. There's no point "upgrading" if you aren't yet maximizing what you have.

+1. APO SL Summicrons are a class apart. I regret selling them, but belt-tightening was necessary. And then there is the 35 M APO Summicron, with a $9k+ price tag in the US and there is still a 2-4 week waiting list here. 

Hasselblad's new P lenses have cut corners - 28P and 75P have steep drop off as you move beyond image center. Even the vaunted new 90V has this issue. The contrast in 28p is very bad compared to the 25V. The older 45p is decent. And astigmatism galore across most of their new lenses. Their older and "fatter" lenses are more even tempered. A clear case of trade-offs in trying to reduce the size and weight. I know this first hand as I have used them and own some of them. On the other hand, I can't imagine Leica releasing a new APO Summicron unless the performance is in the optical stratosphere.

With that said, it is hard to find a "bad" camera today.

For me, where Hasselbad "wins" is the color. And the great menu, large LCD with big font + supreme aesthetics of the body itself is icing on the cake. Hasselblad sensor and colors with the SL APO Summicrons would be a dream team.

Edited August 29 by ravinj

[PeterGA]

If your eye and hand are happy the camera will be used - Leica and Hasselblad understand this first basic. You have to pay for pixel peeping nuffery that makes not one iota of difference to making happy snaps or big prints- but makes for lots of typing on a page in forums. The weight competition has already been won by mobile phones anyway - that is lost territory - forever.

[BWColor]

1 hour ago, ravinj said:

+1. APO SL Summicrons are a class apart. I regret selling them, but belt-tightening was necessary. And then there is the 35 M APO Summicron, with a $9k+ price tag in the US and there is still a 2-4 week waiting list here. 

Hasselblad's new P lenses have cut corners - 28P and 75P have steep drop off as you move beyond image center. Even the vaunted new 90V has this issue. The contrast in 28p is very bad compared to the 25V. The older 45p is decent. And astigmatism galore across most of their new lenses. Their older and "fatter" lenses are more even tempered. A clear case of trade-offs in trying to reduce the size and weight. I know this first hand as I have used them and own some of them. On the other hand, I can't imagine Leica releasing a new APO Summicron unless the performance is in the optical stratosphere.

With that said, it is hard to find a "bad" camera today.

For me, where Hasselbad "wins" is the color. And the great menu, large LCD with big font + supreme aesthetics of the body itself is icing on the cake. Hasselblad sensor and colors with the SL APO Summicrons would be a dream team.

Hasselblad, like Leica, must satisfy customers with differing needs and differing budgets.  For me, the “v” lenses are a perfect blend of size, weight and optical performance… but then again I’ve only used ‘M’ APO lenses.

[beewee]

I’m happy to see more competition. I know Leica product managers have mentioned in the past that the SL lenses are priced more competitively compared to M lenses because they recognize there’s more competition.

In many ways, we as Leica shooters will now better benefit from this competition. In some ways, Fuji is applying pricing pressure on Hasselblad since the GFX system directly competes with the Hasselblad X system. Since there’s also customers that may cross-shop between Leica SL and the Hasselblad X system, there’s also indirect pressure being applied from Hasselblad onto Leica. This is now in addition to the existing competition from direct competition full-frame mirrorless cameras from Sony, Canon, Nikon, Panasonic.

In the past, the pricing pressure mostly came from the full-frame mirrorless side but I think most Leica SL customers aren’t really seriously cross-shopping an SL3 with something from Sony, Canon, Nikon, or Panasonic because they’re probably prioritizing the shooting experience, colours, and integration of M lenses over AF and continuous shooting capabilities. However, I feel the two biggest selling points from Hasselblad is the colours and the shooting experience and so this directly competes for the same group of potential SL buyers.

The fact that the X2Dii + 35-100mm lenses is similarly sized, 300+ grams lighter, and slightly cheaper than the SL3 + 24-90, it really puts pressure on Leica to up their game on the SL line.

At the end of the day, I hope SL shooters will benefit with more competitively priced SL gear and also hopefully even more improved performance. I would love to see Leica offer its own take on Hasselblad’s natural colour solution which is very nice.

[Jeff S]

The biggest downside for me concerning Hasselblad, is the lack of a robust dealer network in the US, and with service now relocated from east to west coast. Fortunately, though, rental is feasible for experimentation.

But in terms of the product itself, the X2D2 is now a viable alternative to the SL system (or potentially the S4) for me given the added features (notably joystick), as well as the increasingly broader, faster, quieter and  compact lens line, at reasonable prices. For instance, the new 35-100 f/2.8-4 seems impressive, a half pound lighter than the SL24-90, and $1700 less expensive.  I can only imagine the price of a comparable new S zoom.

I’ve always thought that the grip and ergonomics of the original X1D was one of the best digital bodies I’ve handled, and the new model seems to retain that attribute while making operations far more practical and effective.  

[jaapv]

It sounds like you are describing sigma  vs Leica lenses. 

[TheGodParticle/Hari]

25 minutes ago, beewee said:

The fact that the X2Dii + 35-100mm lenses is similarly sized, 300+ grams lighter, and slightly cheaper than the SL3 + 24-90, it really puts pressure on Leica to up their game on the SL line.

At the end of the day, I hope SL shooters will benefit with more competitively priced SL gear and also hopefully even more improved performance. I would love to see Leica offer its own take on Hasselblad’s natural colour solution which is very nice.

I’ve been using the SL/SL2S/SL3 since launch and the AF has been improving, but not at the speed I’ve been hoping for. Pun intended.
The X1D2 and X2D remind me of the SL601 in terms of focus speed. I’m not going to bring the 907x100c into the discussion. It’s a unique offering and I mostly use the back with the 503CW/CWD & 205FCC/203FE for landscapes where neither the AF speed nor the lack of a digital EVF are a deal breaker. Still a bit annoying though. 

In terms of focus accuracy, the X2D + 90V miss quite often though the focus is confirmed by the camera. The X2D2 is on order, let’s see if the hype on AF speed and accuracy improvement is real.

As you said, it’s the M-R-S lens compatibility + the 24-90 & 90-280 zooms that still makes the SL series a winner for me. 

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[Jeff S]

33 minutes ago, jaapv said:

It sounds like you are describing sigma  vs Leica lenses. 

The Sigma lenses typically lack the elegant, minimalist design aesthetic of the Leica and Hasselblad counterparts.