Elmar 50mm f3.5 collapsable lens - focus issue or just naturally soft for late 1920's?

[ejg1890]

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So I received my Leica II with the Elmar 50mm 3.5 collapsable lens and have now run 2 rolls through the camera. The camera itself appears to be working good; however, the lens appears to be very soft or even out of focus. I ran the 2nd roll through to try a couple of things - patch focus, zone focus, Jupiter 8. And regardless of patch focus or zone focus the Elmar is very soft. Comparing to the Jupiter 8 the Jupiter is much better, which I wasn't sure since it was a Soviet lens on a Leica.

Regarding the Elmar lens: it is a VERY early Elmar probably late 1920's as it has stops of 6.3, 12.5 and 18 not what became traditional stops in the next version. Also, the lens does not have a serial number as in the very early days lens were considered "attached" to the camera so didn't have a serial number. All this makes sense as I have traced my Leica II to the first batch sent out on February 3, 1932. So bottom line the lens was probably manufactured prior to 1930 as a fixed lens to the Leica I/A but modified as an interchangeable for the Leica II.

Attached are photos from my 2nd roll:

• Photo 1 - the rangefinder patch was used for focus
• Photo 2 - zone focusing was used
• Photo 3 - Photo taken with the Elmar
• Photo 4 - comparison photo was taken with the Jupiter 8 and appears clearer, so I don't think it's the camera. 

So, is this "softness" considered usual for a lens from the late 20's?  Looking for feedback.  Thanks

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Edited July 31 by ejg1890

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[earleygallery]

Hi, can you post an image or two of the lens? 

It's clearly a focussing issue, maybe the lens was tampered with or could it be a lens that was originally fixed and has been paired with an LTM mount and not calibrated properly? 

The Elmar should produce excellent images - this was the lens that built Leica's reputation after all! Just look at photos from the early Leica photographers and you'll see that there's some fault with your copy. 

Edited July 31 by earleygallery

[ejg1890]

18 minutes ago, earleygallery said:

Hi, can you post an image or two of the lens? 

It's clearly a focussing issue, maybe the lens was tampered with or could it be a lens that was originally fixed and has been paired with an LTM mount and not calibrated properly? 

The Elmar should produce excellent images - this was the lens that built Leica's reputation after all! Just look at photos from the early Leica photographers and you'll see that there's some fault with your copy. 

Attached are photos of the lens. 

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[earleygallery]

There doesn't seem to be anything unusual about your lens, and the glass looks pretty clean. 

Might seem daft but are you sure you fully extended it and locked it in place when taking those photos? Failing that I can only assume that someone has been tinkering with it and hasn't put it back together properly. 

[ejg1890]

12 minutes ago, earleygallery said:

There doesn't seem to be anything unusual about your lens, and the glass looks pretty clean. 

Might seem daft but are you sure you fully extended it and locked it in place when taking those photos? Failing that I can only assume that someone has been tinkering with it and hasn't put it back together properly. 

That was my concern with the 1st roll. So the 2nd I made sure the lens was extended. Supposedly the lens was serviced. Curious if one of the elements got reversed in reassembly.

[TomB_tx]

I had a lens years ago where an element was positioned badly. Sharpness and contrast were low, and trying to see if it was a focus issue, nothing would ever be in sharp focus. Had a good tech service the lens, and it became great. I'd send your lens to DAG. Just sent him my Leica 1A for a lens focus issue, and he assured me it could be fixed.

[bobtodrick]

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Definitely not right.  You mention that you did fully extend it...you did also lock it in place?...once extended it takes 1/4 turn (not the focus) to lock it in place.

Other than that, as others have said someone has tinkered with it and not got it right when putting it back together.

Edited August 1 by bobtodrick

[ejg1890]

1 hour ago, bobtodrick said:

Definitely not right.  You mention that you did fully extend it...you did also lock it in place?...once extended it takes 1/4 turn (not the focus) to lock it in place.

Other than that, as others have said someone has tinkered with it and not got it right when putting it back together.

Lock????   D’oh!  

I pulled the lens out all the way. Does locking it into place impact focus even if pulled out? Thought I had tried to see if it turned. Loos like I need to run a 3rd roll thru it tomorrow!  

[spydrxx]

Once you extend any collapsible lens you need to lock it in place in order to properly focus. You didn't mention in your original post what aperture you were shooting at. Normally many early lenses when shot wide open produced a softer image than when stopped down...but nowhere near as soft as your photos show. Hopefully your third test roll with the lens locked in place will produce much better results. If not you should send it to DAG or Youxin Ye to make certain it is properly put together and calibrated. I had a similar issue with a Nikon lens for my Leica iif last year. I had been using it just fine on my mirrorless body for a few months, but when I put it on my Leica iif it didn't properly focus at infinity. DAG found a previous person had reassembled it wrong and now it works great.

[qqphot]

It has to be positioned very precisely. Depending on the rotation of the lens body when collapsed, there can be a substantial change in overall length between just pulling it out, and properly locking it by twisting. It could be enough to produce that degree of defocus. You do really need to always make sure it's fully extended, and then turned until it locks in place. You can look at the back of the lens while it's off the camera to see what's actually happening, it's pretty simple. 

 

[luigi bertolotti]

I had a similar issue when took an "11' o'clock" 95.xxx (at a well known auction site, btw...) : for 180 Euros a local trustable repairer fixed the problem, telling me that probably it was serviced long time ago and "no correctly re-assembled" ... didn't get further details, but fact is that now it performs, in term of sharpness (not of contrast) like my Red Scale brother.

Edited August 1 by luigi bertolotti

[espelt]

The images should all be sharp. At least as sharp as those taken with the Zorki. A certain "softness" shouldn't be confused with blur. Despite this softness, all the details are present. Often, old lenses have aged over 90 years. Fog, dust, or deposits are common. And sometimes someone has even tried to repair them. If you ever get a really well-preserved example - wow. I was truly amazed at what a 90-year-old lens is capable of. Here's a Summar, which is actually known for its softness and low contrast. The Elmar should actually surpass it in terms of sharpness and contrast.

Left with aperture 2.0; right stopped down to 4.5 on a Monochrom 246

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[espelt]

And on the Leica II with a Ferrania orto the results look like this:

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[bobtodrick]

I just noticed the OP said he received the camera and lens.

The rangefinder could be off.

[ejg1890]

Well I went out this morning and shot another roll. This time I ensured the lens was locked.  For some reason I thought the lens would not turn/lock. I have a Rollei 35s and that lens turns to,lock once pulled out. It was an overcast morning so shooting 100 film kept me at about f6.3. Anyways after developing saw an improvement. Lomography Earl Grey developed in HC-110.  Not my favorite combination but quick and inexpensive combo for a quick test or outing. 

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[spydrxx]

My monitor is a little soft, but after running each of your latest shots thru Topaz AI, the focusing improvement is significantly better. If you're not completely satisfied with your results, consider three things: 

1) The lens may still need slight calibration;

2) Your camera body may need the rangefinder cam to be tweaked;

3) The developer may not be the optimum for the film you used.

I'm inclined to think #1 is still relevant. My (later) version of this lens has better contrast and sharpness, even wide open.

[250swb]

To my eye there seems to be some falloff that I wouldn't expect at f/6, say the photo with the truck, the building and gantry in the background appear sharper than the top of the gantry and lamp post in the mid ground. Is this a scanning problem, curly negative, etc.?

[SpotmaticSP]

The last results are much nicer! Don't underestimate the Elmar, it is a famous lens that is very sharp. It had to because of the small film format. The Elmar is the lens that made Leitz famous! 

Here's one from my c. 1930-1931 Elmar.

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[jankap]

11 hours ago, ejg1890 said:

Well I went out this morning and shot another roll. This time I ensured the lens was locked.  For some reason I thought the lens would not turn/lock. I have a Rollei 35s and that lens turns to,lock once pulled out. It was an overcast morning so shooting 100 film kept me at about f6.3. Anyways after developing saw an improvement. Lomography Earl Grey developed in HC-110.  Not my favorite combination but quick and inexpensive combo for a quick test or outing. 

Did you perhaps take a photo at f/3,5? That would be interesting for a rangefinder test.

[ejg1890]

25 minutes ago, jankap said:

Did you perhaps take a photo at f/3,5? That would be interesting for a rangefinder test.

Yes, it was the previous evening, in the corner of our patio, but slightly underexposed at 1/20 since it was taken around 7:30pm and used 100iso film. The scene is very contrasty with shade and breaks to the sky.