From M10 to M11: am I overthinking the shutter lag? or the bump in picture quality?

[thrid]

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On 6/30/2025 at 4:32 PM, SrMi said:

The term "more organic" is too vague to convey any meaning.

I am seeing a difference at base ISO, mostly in high-contrast scenes where shadows need to be lifted. AI NR helps hide the difference, though.

Sean Reid measured the difference to be 0.017sec. The more complex shutter operation of M11 may feel like there is more lag, but in practice, it cannot be noticed.

The M11 features an electronic shutter, enabling wide-open shooting in bright light without the need for an ND filter. Live view is significantly more usable in the M11, and the body is noticeably lighter.

I've seen the charts comparing the shutter response time of the different models. I believe the ones I saw came from either Leica or Red Dot camera and a forum member who was kind enough to record the shutter sound of an M10 and M11 for comparison.

The measured difference between the M10 and M11 was negligible with the M11 being slightly behind, which makes sense since it is doing more work.

But that's not the point I am getting at. 

What some people are interpreting as increased shutter lag is more likely the flaccid feel of the shutter release.  

It really lacks a crisp and definitive release point, especially compared to the film bodies. Combine that with the audible cacophony of the extended shutter cycle that continues after the exposure is made, and it's not a stretch to see where this impression is coming from.

By comparison, on my M2 I can walk the shutter release right up to the edge- and then a fraction of a millimeter further it drops off a cliff and triggers the shutter decisively with a sharp, decisive snap and punctuation. It's truly reminiscent of a finely tuned trigger on a good firearm.

The difference is probably due to the purely mechanical linkage on the film bodies releasing a tightly wound spring and an electro-mechanical solution on the digital M series. But I believe this could be improved, because I do not experience this issue on something like my D850, which has an extremely responsive and tactile shutter release.  Or an F3 for that matter, which is a electro-mechanical design...

This is not really an issue if you are shooting still life, landscapes or generally taking pictures where split second timing isn't vital.

And that's not meant as a slight against one shooting style or another. 

But if you are shooting subjects like fast moving sports, street or documentary type work, where split second timing is paramount, it becomes a major issue and annoyance.

Especially since we're talking about a Leica, and responsiveness has been its raison d'être since the very beginning.

Overall I really like the M11, but I do curse the feel of the shutter release every time I pick up the camera. It was the first thing I noticed, when I tried the M11 upon release. It's also one of the main reasons why I put off buying an M11 for a year and almost went with an M10-R, instead.

But then again I didn't feel that the shutter release on my M240 or M10 was as good as on an M2 or M4 etc. either. But the classic closed-open-closed cycle of the pre M11 cameras at least punctuated the release of the shutter in a more distinct manner.

That's a lot of pixels spilled, but the solution is for Leica to go back to the drawing board and try to make the shutter release on the M12 have a more definitive and crisp release point, and using the film bodies as the benchmark.

It's probably not an issue for the vast majority of Leica buyers, but that should not stop Leica from addressing this issue. For one group, it's irrelevant; for the other, a genuine issue. Fixing it for the minority, would only benefit the majority in this case. Leica never were a company that catered to the lowest common denominator...

 

[Kiwimac]

40 minutes ago, thrid said:

I've seen the charts comparing the shutter response time of the different models. I believe the ones I saw came from either Leica or Red Dot camera and a forum member who was kind enough to record the shutter sound of an M10 and M11 for comparison.

The measured difference between the M10 and M11 was negligible with the M11 being slightly behind, which makes sense since it is doing more work.

But that's not the point I am getting at. 

What some people are interpreting as increased shutter lag is more likely the flaccid feel of the shutter release.  

It really lacks a crisp and definitive release point, especially compared to the film bodies. Combine that with the audible cacophony of the extended shutter cycle that continues after the exposure is made, and it's not a stretch to see where this impression is coming from.

By comparison, on my M2 I can walk the shutter release right up to the edge- and then a fraction of a millimeter further it drops off a cliff and triggers the shutter decisively with a sharp, decisive snap and punctuation. It's truly reminiscent of a finely tuned trigger on a good firearm.

The difference is probably due to the purely mechanical linkage on the film bodies releasing a tightly wound spring and an electro-mechanical solution on the digital M series. But I believe this could be improved, because I do not experience this issue on something like my D850, which has an extremely responsive and tactile shutter release.  Or an F3 for that matter, which is a electro-mechanical design...

This is not really an issue if you are shooting still life, landscapes or generally taking pictures where split second timing isn't vital.

And that's not meant as a slight against one shooting style or another. 

But if you are shooting subjects like fast moving sports, street or documentary type work, where split second timing is paramount, it becomes a major issue and annoyance.

Especially since we're talking about a Leica, and responsiveness has been its raison d'être since the very beginning.

Overall I really like the M11, but I do curse the feel of the shutter release every time I pick up the camera. It was the first thing I noticed, when I tried the M11 upon release. It's also one of the main reasons why I put off buying an M11 for a year and almost went with an M10-R, instead.

But then again I didn't feel that the shutter release on my M240 or M10 was as good as on an M2 or M4 etc. either. But the classic closed-open-closed cycle of the pre M11 cameras at least punctuated the release of the shutter in a more distinct manner.

That's a lot of pixels spilled, but the solution is for Leica to go back to the drawing board and try to make the shutter release on the M12 have a more definitive and crisp release point, and using the film bodies as the benchmark.

It's probably not an issue for the vast majority of Leica buyers, but that should not stop Leica from addressing this issue. For one group, it's irrelevant; for the other, a genuine issue. Fixing it for the minority, would only benefit the majority in this case. Leica never were a company that catered to the lowest common denominator...

 

If someone picks an M camera to shoot fast moving sports, the shutter release point isn’t likely to be their biggest problem!

[Smogg]

13 minutes ago, Kiwimac said:

If someone picks an M camera to shoot fast moving sports, the shutter release point isn’t likely to be their biggest problem!

It is not necessary to shoot only sports to notice this. To photograph a calmly walking person with a beautiful step phase, it is very desirable to take several shots in quick succession and with a minimum delay.

[Stuart Richardson]

I don't own an M11, but when I first tried one out, it was immediately what I noticed. I understand that the technical difference might be small, but the impression of sluggishness is not, particularly if you have had decades using film M's and even the earlier digital M's. For me at least, I had no challenges with accurate metering with the older system, certainly not enough to justify changing the shutter in this way. But I think, as with many of the new technologies that seem to be saddled with recently, we are going to get them regardless of whether we want them or not. If it is better for Leica, then it will happen. 

[costa43]

I leave mine on continuous low. if I keep my finger down it fires off 2 shots a second continously, if I press it once then only a single shot. I do the same with the M10-R. I cannot say I've noticed any difference in capturing the moment between the two cameras but I've not tested for it specifically. I might have to test it now! 

On the subject of colour, It's funny as I actually find the M10-R and for that matter the S3 dng files (never owned just downloaded) the least appealing of all Leica digital cameras straight out of the box yet many find them the most pleasing. Give me an M8 (with the IR cut filter) colour profile over anything else released to date!

[Stuart Richardson]

1 hour ago, costa43 said:

On the subject of colour, It's funny as I actually find the M10-R and for that matter the S3 dng files (never owned just downloaded) the least appealing of all Leica digital cameras straight out of the box yet many find them the most pleasing. Give me an M8 (with the IR cut filter) colour profile over anything else released to date!

I never had an M10R, but I had the S3, and I felt the same way. The stock Adobe profile had a noticeable "look" applied that was not neutral. In particular, the shadows were de-saturated. I think this was partially to cover up the fact that the sensor had a high noise floor and magenta contamination at low ISO. This seems to have been a design choice, as it has very good highlight retention, but shadow detail is noisy with a lot of banding on pushing. Mine was so bad that I reported it to Leica within four days of receiving it, and they said they would look into it. I had shown it to other professional photographer colleagues and they also agreed it was unacceptable. Six months later they told me that it was normal. I asked to return the camera and they said that I couldn't because I had it too long (I kept it while I waited for them to get back to me. They offered instead to buy it back for six thousand dollars less than they sold it to me for six months earlier. That was a very painful lesson learned, and certainly has shaped my views of Leica going forward. Since then, I have looked at any new Leica product with extreme caution. 

Edited July 3 by Stuart Richardson

[costa43]

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2 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I never had an M10R, but I had the S3, and I felt the same way. The stock Adobe profile had a noticeable "look" applied that was not neutral. In particular, the shadows were de-saturated. I think this was partially to cover up the fact that the sensor had a high noise floor and magenta contamination at low ISO. This seems to have been a design choice, as it has very good highlight retention, but shadow detail is noisy with a lot of banding on pushing. Mine was so bad that I reported it to Leica within four days of receiving it, and they said they would look into it. I had shown it to other professional photographer colleagues and they also agreed it was unacceptable. Six months later they told me that it was normal. I asked to return the camera and they said that I couldn't because I had it too long (I kept it while I waited for them to get back to me. They offered instead to buy it back for six thousand dollars less than they sold it to me for six months earlier. That was a very painful lesson learned, and certainly has shaped my views of Leica going forward. Since then, I have looked at any new Leica product with extreme caution. 

Hi Stuart, a very painful lesson and one that leaves a somewhat bitter taste I'm sure.

Before picking up an M11-P (great deal that I couldn't pass up. Well maybe I could but I have a rubber arm with beer and cameras) I actually contemplated selling all my digital Leicas and modern glass and sticking with my film M bodies and vintage lenses which I enjoy very much. Leica M stuff now is just too overpriced in relation to what it delivers. 

[Derbyshire Man]

I've discussed this before. It feels like there's a lag on shutter press but actually it's commensurate with other modern cameras like the Canon R5 at 81ms and Canon 5D 60ms to 0.14 seconds!

What doesn't feel so good is the lock out after a shutter press, it can clearly take 4.5 frames per second if on continuous high but with manual press you're lucky if you get 2 fps. This is problematic for portraiture, not because I'd normally mash the shutter or put it on motor drive (although some people do) but because expressions are really fleeting and a rapidly responsive always ready to go shutter is actually really useful. Still, compared with a film M series it's a damn sight quicker than snap and wind on!

[thrid]

On 7/3/2025 at 12:52 AM, Kiwimac said:

If someone picks an M camera to shoot fast moving sports, the shutter release point isn’t likely to be their biggest problem!

People did it for decades before AF and motor drives and somehow managed to get results...

 

[thrid]

On 7/3/2025 at 3:37 PM, Derbyshire Man said:

I've discussed this before. It feels like there's a lag on shutter press but actually it's commensurate with other modern cameras like the Canon R5 at 81ms and Canon 5D 60ms to 0.14 seconds!

What doesn't feel so good is the lock out after a shutter press, it can clearly take 4.5 frames per second if on continuous high but with manual press you're lucky if you get 2 fps. This is problematic for portraiture, not because I'd normally mash the shutter or put it on motor drive (although some people do) but because expressions are really fleeting and a rapidly responsive always ready to go shutter is actually really useful. Still, compared with a film M series it's a damn sight quicker than snap and wind on!

60-81ms is pretty slow compared to an M. The M film bodies were clocked at 7-12ms.

Back in the day a Canon 1v or F5 SLR was around 20-25ms.

Here are some readings from an old thread. I can't remember who posted the chart, maybe Red Dot Camera?

I think a lot of it is the feel. It's just not crisp. It's very linear, mushy and uneventful, instead of dropping vertically off a cliff with gusto, once you pass the release point.

It's not even close to being as bad as the all-time worst shutter release on the R6.2 (yes, I own one), but it sure isn't as good as on previous generations of the M.

Leica has a huge amount of engineering experience doing this, so it should not be rocket science to fix this. Heck I would even pay to upgrade my M11 shutter release.

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Edited September 26 by thrid

[SrMi]

37 minutes ago, thrid said:

60-81ms is pretty slow compared to an M. The M film bodies were clocked at 7-12ms.

Back in the day a Canon 1v or F5 SLR was around 20-25ms.

Here are some readings from an old thread. I can't remember who posted the chart, maybe Red Dot Camera?

I think a lot of it is the feel. It's just not crisp. It's very linear, mushy and uneventful, instead of dropping vertically off a cliff with gusto, once you pass the release point.

It's not even close to being as bad as the all-time worst shutter release on the R6.2 (yes, I own one), but it sure isn't as good as on previous generations of the M.

Leica has a huge amount of engineering experience doing this, so it should not be rocket science to fix this. Heck I would even pay to upgrade my M11 shutter release.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

The shutter lag should be combined with human visual reaction lag of typically 250ms, though anticipation can reduce all lags.

[Kiwimac]

11 hours ago, thrid said:

People did it for decades before AF and motor drives and somehow managed to get results...

 

Yes that’s true but they had only so many options. 
 

Nobody would make that choice today. 
 

One of my first photography books was “How To Photograph Sports And Action” by a man called Robert McQuilkin who sadly drowned on assignment photographing a wreck in Lake Michigan. 
 

The images he shot with no AF on Nikon F3 and F4 cameras were cutting edge at the time. 
 

I recall one where he Gaffer taped the camera upside down under the wing of a skydiving plane with a wire running back to the cabin and hooked up to a standard door bell button he used as a remote to capture the jumpers as they exited the door. 
 

It’s worth hunting out if the subject interests you. Lots of great shots. 

[jaapv]

12 hours ago, thrid said:

60-81ms is pretty slow compared to an M. The M film bodies were clocked at 7-12ms.

Back in the day a Canon 1v or F5 SLR was around 20-25ms.

Here are some readings from an old thread. I can't remember who posted the chart, maybe Red Dot Camera?

I think a lot of it is the feel. It's just not crisp. It's very linear, mushy and uneventful, instead of dropping vertically off a cliff with gusto, once you pass the release point.

It's not even close to being as bad as the all-time worst shutter release on the R6.2 (yes, I own one), but it sure isn't as good as on previous generations of the M.

Leica has a huge amount of engineering experience doing this, so it should not be rocket science to fix this. Heck I would even pay to upgrade my M11 shutter release.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Most camera makers, Leica - mostly-included, buy their shutters from Copal or Seiko, so there will be not too much in-house expertise.