Summicron 50mm Version 1 collapsible and Dual Range 50mm. Anyone Have Both?

[tappan]

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I was wondering if anyone had both of these lenses and could tell me if there is a small or big difference in image quality. And their thoughts.
I am not concerned about the close focus difference.
Thank you,

Mark

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[tommonego@gmail.com]

I have had both, my feeling is the dual range is better, I had 3 DRs in my film days,, one V1 collapsible, Switching to digital I understand the DR is not compatible with early digital Leicas, i have an M8, it may be better with the M10 and up. The collapsibles were decent lenses, but the DRs were all excellent, even one with fungus pitting on the rear element, I bought that one for $75 and sold it to a friend, who when I hear from him, he always tells me how surprisingly good that lens is. I don't use 50s much on film and full frame, so I always seem to be selling them.

Edited May 14 by tommonego@gmail.com

[lct]

Both superb lenses. The 50/2 DR has more contrast and the 50/2 v1 is gentler on portraits. My experience with the DR is limited to the M11 in LV mode though. It doesn't need its goggles this way. Beware that the DR is not recommended for digital M bodies by Leica. Better setting it to infinity to mount and unmount it. To match them with 35mm lenses, the Summicron 35/2 v1 is a perfect match with the 50/2 v1. Same for the Summaron 35/2.8 with the 50/2 DR. Happy snaps 😃

Edited May 14 by lct

[Ecar]

I have both - and a couple of rigids.
The collapsible is a a good lens, especially in b&w, where it produces subtle tonal gradations. Its colours are rather muted. Overall, I find it charming, if a bit bland. TBH, some contemporary Japanese lenses provide a more interesting rendering.
The DR is definitely a *better* lens if you want more sharpness, contrast, etc. across the frame. However, if I had to choose and didn't want or need its close-focus capabilities, I'd probably pick a Rigid (and more specifically the earlier version with the thinner focus ring, although that may be splitting hairs).
A word of caution: all these early Summicrons have very soft coatings and finding good copies is becoming increasingly difficult. I wouldn't buy one without previous inspection or being able to return it.

[TomB_tx]

I also have a couple of collapsible, a DR, and a couple Rigid. I use the collapsible mainly on ltm with B&W and like it, but the Rigid and DR clearly do better (by my judgment) especially wide open. I see no difference between the DR and Rigid images, which figures as they are the same optical head design. The DR heads were selected based on the actual focal length (all the same), not performance. I prefer the handling of the Rigid.

Along that line, the LLL Rigid handles just like the real Rigid, but focuses to .7 m - so less need of the DR. (Still very please with my LLL)

[lct]

2 hours ago, Ecar said:

The collapsible is a a good lens, especially in b&w, where it produces subtle tonal gradations. Its colours are rather muted. Overall, I find it charming, if a bit bland.

Charming for sure but i would not say muted or bland on the M11. Matter of taste as usual.

M11, 50/2 v1, f/2
M11, 50/2 v1, f/2
M11, 50/2 v1, f/5.6
 

[Ecar]

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3 hours ago, lct said:

Charming for sure but i would not say muted or bland on the M11. Matter of taste as usual.

Nothing that can't be adjusted in post, of course. Here's an illustration of what I meant. On the M9. 1st is a default LR conversion with no adjustments, 2nd was processed to look like the scene as I remembered it. The DR/Rigid would be somewhat punchier/crispier sooc.

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[UliWer]

19 hours ago, Ecar said:

The collapsible is a a good lens, especially in b&w, where it produces subtle tonal gradations. Its colours are rather muted. Overall, I find it charming, if a bit bland.

I see it like Ecar.

I have no Dual-Range, but just the normal "rigid" version, which i'd prefer if one doesn't mind about "close"-focussing. The lenses I used in following examples with the M10 are clear, no scratches, dust etc. Lens detection was switched off. No changes in Lightroom, only crops.

First the whole view.

Collapsible Summicron at f/2

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Rigid Summicron at f/2:

There is more  overall and color contrast from the rigid. The collapsible looks a bit misty (even though the glass isn't). 

 

 

Edited May 16 by UliWer

[UliWer]

Now center crop at f/2:

Collapsible

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Rigid:

 

With strong cropping the difference between the two versions becomes obvious. (Much) better resolution and contrast from the rigid.

 

 

[UliWer]

Upper left corner at f/2:

Collapsible:

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Rigid:

Even though the rigid can't compete with modern Apo-lenses in corner resolution, it is a big step forward compared to the collapsible.

 

 

 

[UliWer]

Center crop at f/5.6

Collapsible:

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rigid:

Even though the collapsible gets better stopped down there is still an obvious difference.

[UliWer]

Corner crop at f5.6:

Collapsible

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Rigid:

Again obvious difference. 

 

[lct]

My collapsible 50/2 v1 doesn't look that misty, if at all. I got it second hand last year so i don't know if it has been CLAed but the seller is a reputed dealer who sells me pristine lenses usually. I'll post a couple sooc jpegs here when i have a moment.

[lct]

Couple of sooc jpegs with Summicron collapsible 50/2 v1 on M11 below. Nothing misty in this lens from 1956. Was the favorite lens of Cartier-Bresson who used it in black and white essentially but it works superbly in color as well. Compared to the DR, the later is just a bit more contrasty and a bit sharper at f/2. My LTM copy of the collapsible has also an 1m MFD when the DR is an M-mount lens that can focus down to 0.5m. The DR is also a bit heavier (340g vs 230g). Without goggles i mean. Happy snaps 😀

M11, 50/2 v1, f/2

M11, 50/2 v1, f/2

M11, 50/2 v1, f/2

M11, 50/2 v1, f/2

M11, 50/2 v1, f/2

M11, 50/2 v1, f/5.6

M11, 50/2 v1, f/5.6

M11, 50/2 v1, f/5.6

M11, 50/2 v1, f/5.6

[luigi bertolotti]

My quick impression about mine :

- My collapsible, very old (920.xxx) is like my Elmar Red scale (on M240) at same apertures; wide open is a very pleasant softly lens

- The DR - perfect glass - is still a superb performer : not appreciable difference with my Cron V5

 

[RobW0]

I do not notice much of a difference between my collapsible and my DR. Both are sharp at f2. My collapsible is a ltm, which also has the radioactive element. 

[luigi bertolotti]

20 hours ago, RobW0 said:

I do not notice much of a difference between my collapsible and my DR. Both are sharp at f2. My collapsible is a ltm, which also has the radioactive element. 

Different view from my previous post : not strange for very old items... I notice that the feelings about collapsibles wiide open are often "sparse".. imho the first Summicrons were "work in progress" (changes of glass source etc...) and, apart the conditions after 70 years or so, their performances can be different, expecially now, with comparisions based on digital files. Anyway, it was a milestone.

Edited May 17 by luigi bertolotti

[Vanillasludge]

1 hour ago, luigi bertolotti said:

Different view from my previous post : not strange for very old items... I notice that the feelings about collapsibles wiide open are often "sparse".. imho the first Summicrons were "work in progress" (changes of glass source etc...) and, apart the conditions after 70 years or so, their performances can be different, expecially now, with comparisions based on digital files. Anyway, it was a milestone.

It definitely was a milestone.  I feel that it was the first “modern” lens.   Although the competing Sonnar was a high contrast lens, its performance was very centrally oriented.   

It was apparently good enough to be Bresson’s favorite, which is  a good reference to me 😂

The v1 is also the smallest Summicron, and pairs really well with the IIIg.  

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[RobW0]

4 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

Different view from my previous post : not strange for very old items... I notice that the feelings about collapsibles wiide open are often "sparse".. imho the first Summicrons were "work in progress" (changes of glass source etc...) and, apart the conditions after 70 years or so, their performances can be different, expecially now, with comparisions based on digital files. Anyway, it was a milestone.

Yes I agree, the white balance, on color, is very difference between my collapsible and DR or Rigid. That is because of the yellow from the radioactive element of the collapsible. 

[lct]

Not all LTM collapsible have a radioactive element. My 1956 copy has no yellow tint at all.