JDBfreeheel Posted January 8, 2008 Share #1 Posted January 8, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi all, I just purchased a user condition chrome M4-P 70th Anniversary Edition. It seems to be in decent shape though a few nicks and bumps here and there. It came with no box, certificate of special edition (which these originally came with), etc. I noticed in doing some research on Stephen Gandy's site and others, that these special 70th Anniversary camera were engraved with either "L, E, I, C, or A" as well as a number from 1-500 on the back of the top plate, in addition to their standard serial number on the flash mount. In total, therefore, 2500 of these were made. However, I realized that my camera is engraved with "I" and 585. This either is an oddity or something fishy is going on. My serial number is consistent with the year of make (1983) 1619XXX. The other anniversary engraving is on the camera and looks normal. I'll post pics soon. Does anyone know for sure whether these special editions were held to the 500 per letter, could mine be a mis-engraving, or is this counterfeit? Hmmm. Josh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 Hi JDBfreeheel, Take a look here M4-P 70th Anniversary Edition # - oddity or fishy?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
JDBfreeheel Posted January 8, 2008 Author Share #2 Posted January 8, 2008 I managed to take some pictures of the engraving. Please let me know what you think. Is this a counterfeit special edition (seems like a lot of trouble for someone to do this, given the low mark up on these versions), a mis-print by Leica, or did they produce more than the 500 per letter? Thanks for looking/pondering, Josh Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/42109-m4-p-70th-anniversary-edition-oddity-or-fishy/?do=findComment&comment=445596'>More sharing options...
fuchs Posted January 8, 2008 Share #3 Posted January 8, 2008 Hi Josh, I don't know abut the engraving, we would need perhaps more detailed pics showing the chrome and engraving texture, and even in that case the identification would be difficult without examining the camera in person. In any case, all sources (Lager, Sartorius, Laney), state that there were only 2500 samples of this variation, with a special number with the characteristics you mention in your post, ie L-E-I-C-A + a 3 digit number from 001 to 500. But, as there is also a very small number of these cameras misengraved ("1813-1983" instead of "1913-1983"), it can be thought possible that Leica misengraved also some of the serials. In any case, if this is a forgery, the forger was a rather ignorant person for two facts: first, the dubious serial number, and second because chrome non-anniversary M4-P's are actually *rarer* than the anniversary ones, ad usually as expensive or more in the collectors' market.... Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted January 8, 2008 Share #4 Posted January 8, 2008 Me too, don't think it's a forgery: frome the pics, the engravings look original, and the odd number can be an error or (more intriguing) a "surplus" on the declared 500-per-letter batch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leitz_not_leica Posted January 8, 2008 Share #5 Posted January 8, 2008 Even if it were legit it wouldn't be worth much more than any other M4-P in better condition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted January 9, 2008 Share #6 Posted January 9, 2008 Try contacting Leica themselves, or maybe LHSA? It doesn't look like fake engraving to me, but I don't know anything about this model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDBfreeheel Posted January 9, 2008 Author Share #7 Posted January 9, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thanks. I'll keep digging. I like the idea of a "surplus." Those sneaky Canadian Leica folks... Regarding the "don't worry...worth" question. I'm not worried so much about the value (I know I posted this in the collector's section, more because I thought the skills and knowledge in this group might be more attuned to these variations). Though, the pictures (the first one particularly) makes it look much worse than it is; nasty shadows. It's actually in fine condition, though it's still a user and not a collector's edition, especially given the lack of box, paperwork, etc. Does anyone know who I might contact at LHSA with questions related to this one? -Josh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuchs Posted January 9, 2008 Share #8 Posted January 9, 2008 Josh, You should contact Jim Lager or Paul Henry van Hasbroeck, they are two of the most respected Leica historians in the world. I'm sending you their emails by PM. Cheers Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosophos Posted February 6, 2022 Share #9 Posted February 6, 2022 Was there ever an answer to this question? I've come across another one that has a > 500 number as well and I'm curious to know the backstory. —Peter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandro Posted February 6, 2022 Share #10 Posted February 6, 2022 I had missed this thread until now and checked my own M4-P which has I 214. It is quite possible that an additional group was made, as Leitz also made a version of a few lenses with the 1913-1983 engraving, like the Summilux 1.4/35mm. Lex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tranquilo67 Posted February 10, 2022 Share #11 Posted February 10, 2022 On 2/6/2022 at 3:01 PM, Prosophos said: Was there ever an answer to this question? I've come across another one that has a > 500 number as well and I'm curious to know the backstory. —Peter. I've checked mine and it's the A-116. The only similar strange thing that I can remember is with the M5 50 years that has also a letter followed by a number (350 per letter, as far as I remember). There are samples with no code in the back but with the 50 jahre engraving that are usually associated to spare rangefinder housings stocked for repairs, that have found their way to the market. In one hand I'd say that when Germans state 500 it means exactly 500, not 501 or 499. On the other hand, it wouldn't be the first exception in Leica to a general rule 🙂 Best wishes, Augusto Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted February 10, 2022 Share #12 Posted February 10, 2022 At the time there was the chance to have the "special engraving" engraved by Leitz, on request and with a fee, on your camera. So there are official cameras as said, and cameras out of official batch. Usually the latter have no papers, certificate, etc. I remember this was possible even at the time of 50th (and indeed I had one, now sold)... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosophos Posted February 10, 2022 Share #13 Posted February 10, 2022 2 hours ago, tranquilo67 said: I've checked mine and it's the A-116. The only similar strange thing that I can remember is with the M5 50 years that has also a letter followed by a number (350 per letter, as far as I remember). There are samples with no code in the back but with the 50 jahre engraving that are usually associated to spare rangefinder housings stocked for repairs, that have found their way to the market. In one hand I'd say that when Germans state 500 it means exactly 500, not 501 or 499. On the other hand, it wouldn't be the first exception in Leica to a general rule 🙂 Best wishes, Augusto 1 hour ago, sabears said: At the time there was the chance to have the "special engraving" engraved by Leitz, on request and with a fee, on your camera. So there are official cameras as said, and cameras out of official batch. Usually the latter have no papers, certificate, etc. I remember this was possible even at the time of 50th (and indeed I had one, now sold)... Thank you so much Augusto and sabears. That makes a lot of sense. —Peter. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al F. Posted January 13, 2023 Share #14 Posted January 13, 2023 (edited) I have an anniversary Leica M4-P, mine has number E589. It came without a box or a certificate. But I bought it from an original owner who use to be a very high executive back in 1980s. another odd thing about my camera is that its back door otherwise normal but has an unusual pressure plate, which looks like more like from Leica M4 model. Camera looks untouched, owner claimed that he had only a roll of film shot in it. I suspect this a gift camera of the specially ordered issue, a prototype or a surplus of the leftover parts from the Canadian factory. wierd ! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited January 13, 2023 by Al F. Added photo Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/42109-m4-p-70th-anniversary-edition-oddity-or-fishy/?do=findComment&comment=4639831'>More sharing options...
sandro Posted January 13, 2023 Share #15 Posted January 13, 2023 Interesting that both examples with a number above 500 come without the special edition box and papers. That makes it more likely that indeed leftover parts were used to make these extra camera's, perhaps even on order. There have also been a number of silver chrome M4-2 bodies, which were never officially produced but probably made on request. On the other hand: I just checked my pictures of specific models I noticed on the market every now and then I found such an M4-P with number A 515, but with its special box. The camera was part of a complete set with four 1913-1983 lenses. Lex 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan mcfall Posted January 14, 2023 Share #16 Posted January 14, 2023 I have E551, new in box with all papers including warranty card, Wetzlar photo postcards and anniversary card. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/42109-m4-p-70th-anniversary-edition-oddity-or-fishy/?do=findComment&comment=4641755'>More sharing options...
Al F. Posted January 14, 2023 Share #17 Posted January 14, 2023 (edited) Wow, another one ! It is still a mystery, numbers > 500 ? apparently a claim that there were only 500 for each letter is incorrect. maybe these extra number were produced as sets with the various lenses combinations. Edited January 14, 2023 by Al F. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted January 15, 2023 Share #18 Posted January 15, 2023 I remember that some years ago it was not easy for me to find one silver chrome without the anniversary engraving .... found one in the USA and took the opportunity of a visit there to bring back it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandro Posted January 15, 2023 Share #19 Posted January 15, 2023 JC, you are very right. Plenty of black M4-P bodies, but much less in silver chrome without the anniversary engraving. Seceral years ago I saw one offered online with the remark that it was a special body because it did NOT have the 1913-1983 engraving! Lex 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpattison Posted January 23, 2023 Share #20 Posted January 23, 2023 In Dennis Laney's "Leica Collector's Guide" page 119 shows a Chrome ur Leica anniversary M4-P with E516. Without comment about this, his text still says 2500 (5 x 500) were issued !! John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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